NFA / ATF

Should definitely be abolished. There is no just reason to make it difficult for a people to defend themselves against their own government.

Any politician that supports disarming / restricting is aiming to do something that would prompt the people to use them.

Change my mind.

PS: We can negotiate the legality of ownership for stand-alone and propelled explosives.

This is just bait but I'm bored.

The idea you can defend yourself from a modern army with small arms is ludicrous prepper fantasy stuff. A drone that drops a bomb on your head doesn't give a shit about your 50 cal machine gun.

That 50 cal would be great for killing a bunch of civilians though, which is what they'd end up being used for. Cause that's what AR-15s are used for today.

Think Uvalde cops took their time because of a guy with an assault rifle? Imagine how long it would have taken if the guy had a Browning mounted and ready inside that school room.

Uvalde cops are the reason people should be armed. Police in the United States have no duty to protect the people, so people need to take their own security seriously.


A drone that drops a bomb in your head is fueled and armed by humans who can’t withstand fire from a 50 cal machine gun, so that’s a silly argument.


I can’t remember the last time my AR-15 killed someone. Must have been before I got it!

Windy don't take the bait. Let the Americans enjoy their Fetish.

Gun control is transphobic!

Abolish the NFA and ATF (and DEA while we're at it)!

I'm not dipping into the argument, but this is silly logic at best.

Why not train cops better? Why not have a higher class of hiring folks? Why is your logic to ensure any dumbass can go get a gun and shoot 20 people?

This nation was built on compromise and the ability to meet in the middle with the other side. If people are tired of wondering which day their kid will get shot up in, or which concert/movie/etc that they go to will be their last...what ideas do you have to prevent dumbasses from being emotional with a gun while ensuring you're rights under the 2nd amendment?

Why not make the bar higher in obtaining and keeping a gun? I am sure gun owners pursuant on "protection" will be willing to meet lets say a licensure type system? Competition and hunting already does, and statistically are safer than driving a car. so...

Again, not getting into the debate, I am a gun owner, just debating your logic of "cops won't protect us, so lets arm ourselves". I am not sure you realize the amount of dumbasses and idiots in this country. or the base argument "if bad people have guns, we need guns" which is a whole other arena of illogical fallacy.

What's the range on those 50 cals? Better be at least 100 miles.

The problem with cops is that you essentially need to have two completely different personalities.

In the 0.1% of time when they're actually dealing with a serious crime you do need someone physically capable, a tough attitude and to be able to subdue suspects.

Unfortunately the rest of the time you need to be a friendly, conscientious officer of the law who doesn't get bored and decide to just start shit with impunity.

These two characters do not sit side-by-side.

I think some counties are starting a hybrid system, where they send trained psychologists on certain calls. I'd like to see how those play out, and maybe there is some benefit in mixing eggheads and thoroughly vetted police.

I think the issue is, the institutionalized cops are going to be resistant as f**k to change so I think this whole idea of "higher hiring standards" is a pipedream until this country can admit some it's own faults to themselves. Also training of cops are so different from state to state, no wonder they have nervous nellys shooting innocent people, cops that tackle elderly people, etc. One county/state could have an excellent training program, and one state/county over you get Uvalde.

There's also the pay issue to discuss. Especially at the corrections dept. And the temptation for importing illegal items to inmates to make up for shit pay and having to deal with crazy assholes daily.

If these people aren't going to make atleast 6 figures why the f**k would anyone choose to do a job like that? Even without o.t. I average 15k more than my local cops or starting deputy sheriff's salary and probably 20k more than anyone working in corrections.

Even if I do consider my job stressful it's no where near what a corrections officer deals with daily.

A corrections officer, which is an officer that has a posting/job at a jail, is not really part of this equation. Though our jail and recovery system is shit, in large part due to for-profit jails.

The upper range of police officers in many areas is 100k. The average is 50-75k. And corrections a little lower.

besides the point that most industries need a wage increase, I don't think Chad the cop pulls the trigger more because he had a little money problem. It's usually because he is already a shit human, or has been conditioned so. First step is recognition, and no change will ever happen as long as cops think they can do no wrong.

A more ridiculous statement I have yet to see today. Are/were you a police officer? Do you personally know any police officers? A human being is quite capable of being either of those characters at the right time.

Most cops are neither of these, unfortunately. Most are bullies and cowards eager to abuse their power but fear for their life if you look at them the wrong way, or just run away if there's a legitimate threat.

I know three former cops. All of whom quit because of the corruption they saw but couldn't report because their lives would be in danger.

Cops themselves have come out and said they dont want to go on psyche calls, they aren't equipped, and ties up their training time that could be better spent elsewhere.

Why not take some of the military spending budget we give them, and have them hire some psychologists? Create jobs, save some lives, and ease the troubles of a highly stressful position.

Firearms are simultaneously ineffective at fighting wars AND impossible to be stopped by the government while in the hands of civilians.

Thanks for your addition to the conversation!

Query:

Hypothetically, if the F (and E) part was removed from the ATF's jurisdiction....

....would most of the public's objection be removed from the (presumably renamed) Bureau of Alcohol and Tobacco's jurisdiction?

Yes, I understand that it is highly likely that most of the ATF's workhours and budget is on the enforcement of the F and E side (rather than enforcement of the A and T side).

Yes, I understand that the probable reason for the bundling of Alcohol and Tobacco enforcement across state lines with Firearms and Explosives enforcement across state lines is because there's likely a significant overlap in what type of individuals that move all four in the largest quantities.

Still, enforcement of A and T is under the ATF's jurisdiction, so it would be interesting to hear arguments (pro and con) that factor in A and T in addition to F and E, rather than just turning into another gun debate.

Maybe but I suspect liquor store owners feel the same about the ATF as FFLs do. Also, AFAIK they also cover arson.

EDIT: Looks like our boy edited this so add more context.

Iirc it was originally a part of the IRS. Guns and alcohol become intertwined in prohibition era (when GCA and NFA were first crafted).

As a result it seems BATFE was made a distinct division of the executive because at the time those were pressing matters and it was a neat solution to focus on all of them and they happened to at the time be very associated. Nowadays alcohol manufacturers and criminals using firearms to further thier enterprise are fathoms apart.

That's my explanation. Nowadays I would say that they should probably separate but no government agency would willingly cede power lmao