paperflow: forum

Thread Breakdown

• Part 1: Intro, About Me & Challenge Setup (You are here)

• Part 2: The Early Run: $2k to $10M (Micro-stakes survival & asymmetric risk)

• Part 3: The Middle Grind: $10M to $1B (Scaling through mid-stakes & surviving through frustration)

• Part 4: The Final Boss: $1B to $5B (High-stakes navigation through tight and exploitive play)

• Part 5: Overall Observations and Stats

Current Progress

$2k -> $1B @ River Wizard (500k/1m) - 8131 cumulative hands played from Newbie Corner.
Track me here

Introduction

I'm paperflow, a 1-month new citizen in Torn who has completely fallen in love with the open-ended sandbox nature of the game. I’m taking on Systoned's Poker Challenge (Official Thread & Metrics$2,000 starting bankroll to $5 billion.): taking a

To make this interesting, I'm attempting this in just one single cycle, without dropping down any table tiers or restarting.

Personal Background & Why This Challenge Resonates

When I joined Torn a month ago, I actually built my initial net worth at the tables, grinding from micro-stakes to being able to afford my first Xanax and subsequently my first Happy Jump. So basically, I've been doing an informal version of this challenge already!

Professionally and in real life, I work as a quantitative trader, having split my time between Sydney, Chicago and London over the past 6 years. I play 5/10 live office games with work peers a few times a month (where a ridiculous amount of ego and pride is on the line) albeit to limited success. So while I'm certainly not a professional poker reg, I understand the core concepts well. EV, equity, pot odds, and especially Reverse Implied Odds in bloated multi-way pots.

Before Challenge - Torn Poker Stats (Prior to Challenge Inception)

As you can see below, I'm still relatively new without much experience, haven't logged tens of thousands of hands, and am still developing my main bankroll. Which is why running this challenge in a single clean cycle matters so much to me!

I want to use this thread to discuss key moment in my journey and where I've had the biggest hurdles / learnings at every tier of play. For those more experienced than me I hope to learn from you! And for everything else undertaking this challenge I wish good luck.

Part 3: The Middle Grind

Update 1: 10m -> 1b In progress: Just hit 100m

Games are definitely tougher - feels a lot harder than when I was climbing the first time around. Maybe because I keep bumping into other climbers, @Olivian and @MaweRosli on the 20m tables. They play quite sharp and well, especially post-flop. It is very hard to get thin value out of them and often I found myself on the wrong side of perceived equity.

Update: Just hit 1b. This section (10m -> 1b) contains 7276 recorded hands. 

I want to use some stats to breakdown my play and where I played well and where I can improve. I find that I play very similarly with real money and on torn poker (most decisions are guided more by maths/GTO) but I definitely have some leaks in my game that these stats show.

Preflop Stats

• 3-bet: 5.7%
• Post flop aggression: 37.8%

VPIP/PFR Gap

The difference between 35.4% VPIP and 18.5% PFR is fairly large. I think it is far larger than if I played with real money. Of the 2,578 hands I entered voluntarily, 1,233 contained no preflop raise from me. That makes passive entries worth examining. The useful question is which hands I'm entering passively, from where, and at what price. Simply trying to close the VPIP/PFR gap could remove profitable decisions along with weak ones.

Where the profit was concentrated

My first voluntary action was a raise over limpers in 662 hands, or just 9.1% of the sample. Those hands produced approximately 91% of net dollar profit and 68% of total profit measured in big blinds.

Passive entries had very different outcomes

Looking specifically at 7–9-player games:

Two short hand examples. River Wizard, $1M BB

A♠6♣: +$147M. I raised on the button and saw A♦6♦J♠ four ways. After calling the flop, the 6♥ turn gave me a full house. I called a 48 BB turn bet, then bet 66 BB into 144 BB on the 9♣ river when checked to. AK called. The useful sizing question is whether a larger river bet would get paid often enough to earn more.

K♦T♣: −$68.75M. On 9♦T♠Q♦ / T♦ / 2♠, I called a 40 BB turn bet into 24 BB, then another 20 BB on the river, losing to A♦7♦. The turn call needed 38.5% immediate equity; against the shown flush I had 25%, including J♦ as a straight-flush out. Worse hands, bluffs or future payments could justify continuing, but making trips alone doesn't settle the decision.

Interested in how others would play these hands.

For Part 4, I want to keep reviewing these specific situations: passive entries that become expensive, value sizes against weaker calling ranges, and large turn calls when the board changes.

See you all at RW/Cats.

Hey everyone,
In the past have there been any big poker tournaments on Torn Poker? It would be great to have a bit of variety to the wonderful cash games we already have. Perhaps a once a month tournament where you can buy in for say a modest sum 50-100m where players enter, tables balance automatically and blinds scale up quickly. Could have different tables depending on timezones and then run it across a few days

I think it could help Torn (the game) in a few ways

1. Cash games could get repetitive. A regular tournament could give something aspirational to strive for such as dedicated honor bars
2. Tournaments require different skillsets. I kind of felt this when I was running the 2k -> 5b poker challenge but I like the idea it forces you to think about your cash stack a bit differently (ICM maths) - as in tournaments often a chip lost is worth a lot more than a chip gained. A lot of the Torn cash games feel as though 30-50% of the players don't sweat losing their cash stack as its such a small proportion of their overall stack and they can make it back easily (especially in the lower stakes).
3. Massive community engagement. We always see highlights about someone winning the lottery or binking on the slots but this could bring more eyes into the poker community (for worse or for better)

What do you guys think - apologies if this has been asked to death - still a new player just learning the ropes :)

Finally completed part 3. Been very hard to find time to play sessions of torn poker over the last months but getting some games in here and there. 

I looked through all hands played during this period and found some very interesting findings through the maths. I've shared some analysis on where the profit came from and where my biggest leaks were.

See everyone at RW / Cats :)

I still think the evidence posted about going all in with a fucking 2 pair on a wet board is damning enough. Along with 60% vpip playing mostly pound and rw

Hit 100m. Added some observations so far on my climb so far on Part 3.

Edit: double post

Ah thanks! This was exactly what I was after. Really looking forward to TSOP! And any other player organised ones too :)

Hey everyone,
In the past have there been any big poker tournaments on Torn Poker? It would be great to have a bit of variety to the wonderful cash games we already have. Perhaps a once a month tournament where you can buy in for say a modest sum 50-100m where players enter, tables balance automatically and blinds scale up quickly. Could have different tables depending on timezones and then run it across a few days

I think it could help Torn (the game) in a few ways

1. Cash games could get repetitive. A regular tournament could give something aspirational to strive for such as dedicated honor bars
2. Tournaments require different skillsets. I kind of felt this when I was running the 2k -> 5b poker challenge but I like the idea it forces you to think about your cash stack a bit differently (ICM maths) - as in tournaments often a chip lost is worth a lot more than a chip gained. A lot of the Torn cash games feel as though 30-50% of the players don't sweat losing their cash stack as its such a small proportion of their overall stack and they can make it back easily (especially in the lower stakes).
3. Massive community engagement. We always see highlights about someone winning the lottery or binking on the slots but this could bring more eyes into the poker community (for worse or for better)

What do you guys think - apologies if this has been asked to death - still a new player just learning the ropes :)

just crossed 1b cumulative profits.

• 970m before the challenge (mostly on pound it / river wizard)
• 90m currently on the challenge

Thank you so much for your detailed analysis this is the type of discussion I really wanted to open and start - especially as Torn Poker is so (at least in the <200m tables) than real life poker.

Re Hand 2 - yes I agree I think that the turn was a bit aggressive and I had no business calling there if I wasn't going to call a river jam with nut flush (even with a paired board). On the river my logic was that 75% of the time yes he probably has a worse hand than me (as a loose player at these stakes probably would over-value 2-pair, sets here which was my initial logic) but I wasn't sure if I could risk hours of bankroll build-up and potentially resetting my one-life streak to call that. However yes if I wasn't going to call the all-in here I definitely should have folded the turn!

I think the coolest thing about this challenge is seeing the average level of play get better and better as you go up the stakes and having to quickly adjust

Update: Added Part 2: The Early Run 2k - 10m with statistics and some interesting hands.

Yeah I play! My user name is the same as my user here (paperflow). Im a 2200 total ironman so would be down to do some content together!

Thanks guys been really enjoying the challenge so far! Its a true test of patience. And elputojack ill see you at cats soon ;)

Reserved - Part 5

Reserved - Part 4

Part 3: The Middle Grind

Update 1: 10m -> 1b In progress: Just hit 100m

Games are definitely tougher - feels a lot harder than when I was climbing the first time around. Maybe because I keep bumping into other climbers, @Olivian and @MaweRosli on the 20m tables. They play quite sharp and well, especially post-flop. It is very hard to get thin value out of them and often I found myself on the wrong side of perceived equity.

Update: Just hit 1b. This section (10m -> 1b) contains 7276 recorded hands. 

I want to use some stats to breakdown my play and where I played well and where I can improve. I find that I play very similarly with real money and on torn poker (most decisions are guided more by maths/GTO) but I definitely have some leaks in my game that these stats show.

Preflop Stats

• 3-bet: 5.7%
• Post flop aggression: 37.8%

VPIP/PFR Gap

The difference between 35.4% VPIP and 18.5% PFR is fairly large. I think it is far larger than if I played with real money. Of the 2,578 hands I entered voluntarily, 1,233 contained no preflop raise from me. That makes passive entries worth examining. The useful question is which hands I'm entering passively, from where, and at what price. Simply trying to close the VPIP/PFR gap could remove profitable decisions along with weak ones.

Where the profit was concentrated

My first voluntary action was a raise over limpers in 662 hands, or just 9.1% of the sample. Those hands produced approximately 91% of net dollar profit and 68% of total profit measured in big blinds.

Passive entries had very different outcomes

Looking specifically at 7–9-player games:

Two short hand examples. River Wizard, $1M BB

A♠6♣: +$147M. I raised on the button and saw A♦6♦J♠ four ways. After calling the flop, the 6♥ turn gave me a full house. I called a 48 BB turn bet, then bet 66 BB into 144 BB on the 9♣ river when checked to. AK called. The useful sizing question is whether a larger river bet would get paid often enough to earn more.

K♦T♣: −$68.75M. On 9♦T♠Q♦ / T♦ / 2♠, I called a 40 BB turn bet into 24 BB, then another 20 BB on the river, losing to A♦7♦. The turn call needed 38.5% immediate equity; against the shown flush I had 25%, including J♦ as a straight-flush out. Worse hands, bluffs or future payments could justify continuing, but making trips alone doesn't settle the decision.

Interested in how others would play these hands.

For Part 4, I want to keep reviewing these specific situations: passive entries that become expensive, value sizes against weaker calling ranges, and large turn calls when the board changes.

See you all at RW/Cats.

Part 2: The Early Run: $2k to $10M 

Detailed Stats:

Journey

I felt that climbing through micro-stakes with one-life and without the ability to move down was all about reducing personal variance. Your opponents view buy-ins as disposable yet for you it is your entire livelihood and your run depends on you keeping it alive. This means throwing GTO out the door and playing only spots that are heavily favoured for you >70% equity while giving up more marginal spots (that you would play if you would play more optimally). There is zero-tolerance for a reset. I think these stakes are more a test of mental resilience and patience for a very high equity spot more than anything.

My adjustment to my regular play was to exploit asymmetric payoff structures and eliminating pure bluffs entirely - which carry heavy negative EV against a field that will call with bottom pair. I will give two examples of hands where I had to deviate from GTO to survive this range without variance. Happy to discuss these hands!

Sample hands where I played differently because of the stakes / challenge conditions

Hand 1 - Mucking to a 100 BB Bet with AhQh with 138 BB (Broke Jokes - $10k table)

• Pre: I raised to 6 BB with AhQh UTG and got dragged into a 7-way family pot. 42 BB pot
  
  
• Flop ($2100 / 42 BB) : Flop came Kh 5d 10h. Action checks to MP who raises 80 BB (all-in) and he gets one caller who is all-in for another 100 BB. I fold.
  
  
• There is now 222 BB in the middle, and it costs me 100 BB to call. In a standard GTO game this is a snap call as I have 9 flush outs, 4 straight outs and possible an Ace out. My equity is 33-35%. This call would print money over 10000 simulations.
  
  
• My logic is that under a single-cycle challenge, your utility function is strictly non-linear:
  • Win (35% probability): Adds +242 BB, a solid gain but does not complete my challenge
  • Lose (65% probability): Wipes out your current stack, forcing an entire cycle reset

Hand 2 - Deep Stack 1150 BB, foldng the nut flush (Gatling Gun - $200k table)

• Pre: I open to 6 BB in the Cutoff with As10s following 3 limpers. SB calls, folds around. 16 BB pot.
  
  
• Flop ($16k / 16 BB): Flop came 6h 4d 2s. SB checks. I think the GTO standard line here would be to C-bet 6-7 BB as I hold two overcards and a backdoor nut flush draw. However, in the one-life approach I check as I hold Ace-high with 0 made pair as building the pot here adds unnecessary variance and any of these guys would be happy to check-call bottom pair as the torn money doesn't mean much.
  
  
• Turn ($16k / 16 BB): 10s. I hit Top pair, Top Kicker plus nut flush draw. BB puts in 100 BB. I call.
  
  
• River ($216k / 216 BB): 4s. I hit the nut flush. He goes all in for 1150+ bb covering my 1150 stack. I snap fold. The board-pairing 4s creates a classic reverse implied-odds trap. 
  
  
• Folding the nut flush on any board feels terrible. However, at this tier a 1100+ BB overbet jam on a board-pairing river represents extreme line polarisation. Yes, there's a good chance that I'm facing a set, bluff or a lower flush (85%) but a board-pairing card combined with a 1000+ BB river shove biases the opponent's range towards full houses (66, 10 4). In a normal game I think this is a call.

Happy to discuss some of your experiences at these stakes and how you'd have played these hands

Thread Breakdown

• Part 1: Intro, About Me & Challenge Setup (You are here)

• Part 2: The Early Run: $2k to $10M (Micro-stakes survival & asymmetric risk)

• Part 3: The Middle Grind: $10M to $1B (Scaling through mid-stakes & surviving through frustration)

• Part 4: The Final Boss: $1B to $5B (High-stakes navigation through tight and exploitive play)

• Part 5: Overall Observations and Stats

Current Progress

$2k -> $1B @ River Wizard (500k/1m) - 8131 cumulative hands played from Newbie Corner.
Track me here

Introduction

I'm paperflow, a 1-month new citizen in Torn who has completely fallen in love with the open-ended sandbox nature of the game. I’m taking on Systoned's Poker Challenge (Official Thread & Metrics$2,000 starting bankroll to $5 billion.): taking a

To make this interesting, I'm attempting this in just one single cycle, without dropping down any table tiers or restarting.

Personal Background & Why This Challenge Resonates

When I joined Torn a month ago, I actually built my initial net worth at the tables, grinding from micro-stakes to being able to afford my first Xanax and subsequently my first Happy Jump. So basically, I've been doing an informal version of this challenge already!

Professionally and in real life, I work as a quantitative trader, having split my time between Sydney, Chicago and London over the past 6 years. I play 5/10 live office games with work peers a few times a month (where a ridiculous amount of ego and pride is on the line) albeit to limited success. So while I'm certainly not a professional poker reg, I understand the core concepts well. EV, equity, pot odds, and especially Reverse Implied Odds in bloated multi-way pots.

Before Challenge - Torn Poker Stats (Prior to Challenge Inception)

As you can see below, I'm still relatively new without much experience, haven't logged tens of thousands of hands, and am still developing my main bankroll. Which is why running this challenge in a single clean cycle matters so much to me!

I want to use this thread to discuss key moment in my journey and where I've had the biggest hurdles / learnings at every tier of play. For those more experienced than me I hope to learn from you! And for everything else undertaking this challenge I wish good luck.