Ok we got off topic on the forum "'God' versus 'The Big Bang'" so I wanted to start a new thread to debate our new topic.
For this I am assuming some God exists. Doesn't have to be the christian god, but that is where most my knowlage rests.
I think God can have a plan or even just create the universe without needing to control every atom and event ever. He can create us with a general idea of what he wants and just let random events do the rest. The god of the bible seems show this in one way with Noah. Seems odd to think he planned everything out to the letter just to kill everyone and start over more or less with a clean slate. I think he can create Adam and Eve without ever caring if you and I exist. Just caring that humans will and wanting to be praised or whatever his goal is.
Now I believe he has the ability to easily control every atom through out the universe at every moment, I just don't see the point to it. I have the ability to put all my clothes into the hamper to be washed, but when I get into the shower I throw my shirt randomly and it ends up on the floor a good portion of the time. I don't think ability to do something means that we have to do that thing.
Really the debate falls to "Do you think God controls everything or just set the pieces in motion?" Its not something I've debated before, but might be fun.
Opt out, I honestly can't take a"debate" that begins under the assumption that an anthropomorphic personification exists seriously. This is like starting a "debate" with "I'm assuming Santa Clause exists..." and then the question and 3 options being
How does Santa travel all around the world in one night?
1. Elf dust
2. Magic Reindeers
3. Rocket powered sleigh
MadameButterfly [1035358]Opt out, I honestly can't take a"debate" that begins under the assumption that an anthropomorphic personification exists seriously. This is like starting a "debate" with "I'm assuming Santa Clause exists..." and then the question and 3 options being
How does Santa travel all around the world in one night?
1. Elf dust
2. Magic Reindeers
3. Rocket powered sleigh
You can have a fun debate on anything you want even Santa. I personally think its magic reindeer. Elves don't have dust you're thinking fairies, and he was around long before rockets. Maybe he upgraded though.
I only really started this one out cause you seemed to think about this more then anybody I've encountered before. You have some strong beliefs about the characteristics of god for somebody that doesn't believe and I thought it could be fun. I've never dug that deep into his plan myself so I figured it get me thinking in a new angle. I suppose I should have started this one with the christian god specifically sense different gods have different plans I guess, but I'm open to talking about any religion or general god. I don't think most gods are anthropomorphic though. That seems like a large assumption for religions to start with.
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1035358 [1035358]
Sorry, I would rather participate in Madame Butterflys topic. It is a combination between portals, magic, and a secret that I am not able to tell at the moment.
But yes you are saying if their is a god blah blah blah but all the explanations are just of the one god. Could their be one possibly just as possible as their being many, or there being more other things going on that can not be explained in such a way, and there could have been creatures claiming to be gods trying to take the credit, or nothing at all and things just happened. How do you know how real reality is? If there is some sort of guiding force does it just give out the plot points and then most of everyone else is just filler. Like the guy in a story that delivers flowers, or the soldiers there to die first on the battlefield. Could it just be one story teller or many stories intertwining, for all you know the earth could be one giant soap opera for some sort of entities that would probably be considered ancient by Earth standards. Though a movie would be considered to take up a long chunk of life for a fish fly. Perhaps the universe was a long forgotten school project stuck away in some sort of container or field or voidness inside a closet somewhere.
With what you are asking you still seeming to be wanting to ask about the Abrahamic god and what you feel about how it is doing things because your question how it is set is for a monotheistic form of entity.
lol you constantly misunderstand me (or maybe choose just to just interpret everything you read so that it fits within your limited bubble of belief), I have no beliefs about the characteristics of "god" since something that doesn't exist can display no characteristics other than it's nonexistence. As for thinking about it a lot yet again no, I think about the nature of the universe a lot but at no point do I include an anthropomorphic personification as part of that nature or anything to do with it what so ever
DrZed [237786]Sorry, I would rather participate in Madame Butterflys topic. It is a combination between portals, magic, and a secret that I am not able to tell at the moment.
But yes you are saying if their is a god blah blah blah but all the explanations are just of the one god. Could their be one possibly just as possible as their being many, or there being more other things going on that can not be explained in such a way, and there could have been creatures claiming to be gods trying to take the credit, or nothing at all and things just happened. How do you know how real reality is? If there is some sort of guiding force does it just give out the plot points and then most of everyone else is just filler. Like the guy in a story that delivers flowers, or the soldiers there to die first on the battlefield. Could it just be one story teller or many stories intertwining, for all you know the earth could be one giant soap opera for some sort of entities that would probably be considered ancient by Earth standards. Though a movie would be considered to take up a long chunk of life for a fish fly. Perhaps the universe was a long forgotten school project stuck away in some sort of container or field or voidness inside a closet somewhere.
With what you are asking you still seeming to be wanting to ask about the Abrahamic god and what you feel about how it is doing things because your question how it is set is for a monotheistic form of entity.
Any god out there does seem to have long forgotten about us. Especially if you believe in the stories of the bible. He goes from extremely active to what seems to me to be non existent. Maybe we bored him. I don't think anything can keep my interest for a few hundred years let alone millennia. I defiantly don't see any indications that imply on ongoing plan. Which is why I never put too much thought into it before.
Portals! That is genius. Do the reindeer fly threw the portals or can Santa just walk threw them. That could solve the 'how does he get into the house?' mystery as well. He's like Mighty Max now.
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DrZed [237786]
MadameButterfly [1035358]lol you constantly misunderstand me (or maybe choose just to just interpret everything you read so that it fits within your limited bubble of belief), I have no beliefs about the characteristics of "god" since something that doesn't exist can display no characteristics other than it's nonexistence. As for thinking about it a lot yet again no, I think about the nature of the universe a lot but at no point do I include an anthropomorphic personificationas part of that nature or anything to do with it what so ever
lol you are the most wishy washy person I've ever talked to. At first you seemed like you had an active enough imagination that I though it would be fun to poke around at your thoughts. I never brought up things like god being anthropomorphic that is a word that you are proud of, I don't think it relates to god. When I first saw you post you had a page written about god controlling every molecule throughout history.
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1035358 [1035358]
"I don't think ability to do something means that we have to do that thing."
I believe it does when your (perceived?) reason for existing is in that ability.
"Now I believe he has the ability to easily control every atom through out the universe at every moment, I just don't see the point to it."
I must ask if you believe God has the capacity to feel human emotion.
I don't think God has much power, if any at all personally. If God made us in his image, and a large part of being human is empathy towards others, surely this trait must be present inside God, and he must feel the pain of every person who has been wrongfully hurt or put into an undesirable position with zero deserving of it and/or indication as to why. This forces me to ask why he does nothing to ease the suffering of those people, and the only answer I can draw is that he isn't able to.
On the other hand if he is all powerful and has the ability to control everything at any time, he, even maybe inadvertantly, causes everything anyway by not interfering with the process.
Just my two cents.
EDIT
Typo's [:disappointed:]
If such a thing as gods were to exist, I think there's only space for them at the beginning of time. The Universe seems to continue as if there are no gods exerting their power now. I like the image of a sad lonely man who created something to keep him company, he had great plans for it but its all gone to s**t and now he's forgotten about it and moved on. I don't believe that image, but I enjoy it.
Nothing says that gods must be anthropological.
I think, also, it's fine to set up a debate with parameters of your choosing. There's nothing wrong with hypothetical discussions you don't believe in.
As for Santa, I believe they are a robot army built by the Chinese that run off milk and cookies . There couldn't possibly be one Santa, that's clearly a lie. There are thousands upon thousands, that's how it seems that he is in different places at the same time. Individually, of course, each robot uses magical reindeers to fly them from place to place.
Tulinz [1864210]MadameButterfly [1035358]lol you constantly misunderstand me (or maybe choose just to just interpret everything you read so that it fits within your limited bubble of belief), I have no beliefs about the characteristics of "god" since something that doesn't exist can display no characteristics other than it's nonexistence. As for thinking about it a lot yet again no, I think about the nature of the universe a lot but at no point do I include an anthropomorphic personificationas part of that nature or anything to do with it what so ever
lol you are the most wishy washy person I've ever talked to. At first you seemed like you had an active enough imagination that I though it would be fun to poke around at your thoughts. I never brought up things like god being anthropomorphic that is a word that you are proud of, I don't think it relates to god. When I first saw you post you had a page written about god controlling every molecule throughouthistory.
See this is a prime example of what I was saying about you interpreting everything in a way so that it fits into your own limited belief system. Firstly I never accused you of calling "God" an anthropomorphic personification, that's what I believe
it ( "God" ) is so that's all I'll refer to
it as because I see no reason why I should afford a lie with the status of an identity.
Secondly I didn't have a page about
it controlling every molecule throughout history, I had a page presenting the hypothesis that for
it to exist
it would had to have controlled every atom throughout history (explaining exactly what that would have involved) and posed that in a way where I was asking Foggy if he really thought that was in any way logical. I never once said that's what
it does, I was showing how ludicrous it is to believe that that's what
it does. See you don't read things as they are written, you read things from the assumption that
it exists and assume then that when anyone else is talking about
it then they must be assuming that
it exists too.
You think you are so open minded but you're not, you are just like all the other zealots out there, you refuse to believe that anyone else on the planet doesn't in some way or another believe in a "God". You even proved that on this thread when you didn't add the forth option "There is no God.". I question beliefs whereas you, on the other hand, force them.
Mentions:
1035358 [1035358]
· Tulinz [1864210]
MadameButterfly [1035358]Tulinz [1864210]MadameButterfly [1035358]lol you constantly misunderstand me (or maybe choose just to just interpret everything you read so that it fits within your limited bubble of belief), I have no beliefs about the characteristics of "god" since something that doesn't exist can display no characteristics other than it's nonexistence. As for thinking about it a lot yet again no, I think about the nature of the universe a lot but at no point do I include an anthropomorphic personificationas part of that nature or anything to do with it what so ever
lol you are the most wishy washy person I've ever talked to. At first you seemed like you had an active enough imagination that I though it would be fun to poke around at your thoughts. I never brought up things like god being anthropomorphic that is a word that you are proud of, I don't think it relates to god. When I first saw you post you had a page written about god controlling every molecule throughouthistory.
See this is a prime example of what I was saying about you interpreting everything in a way so that it fits into your own limited belief system. Firstly I never accused you of calling "God" an anthropomorphic personification, that's what I believe it ( "God" ) is so that's all I'll refer to it as because I see no reason why I should afford a lie with the status of an identity.
Secondly I didn't have a page about it controlling every molecule throughout history, I had a page presenting the hypothesis that for it to exist it would had to have controlled every atom throughout history (explaining exactly what that would have involved) and posed that in a way where I was asking Foggy if he really thought that was in any way logical. I never once said that's what it does, I was showing how ludicrous it is to believe that that's what it does. See you don't read things as they are written, you read things from the assumption that it exists and assume then that when anyone else is talking about it then they must be assuming that it exists too.
You think you are so open minded but you're not, you are just like all the other zealots out there, you refuse to believe that anyone else on the planet doesn't in some way or another believe in a "God". You even proved that on this thread when you didn't add the forth option "There is no God.". I question beliefs whereas you, on the other hand,
The hypothesis of what you thought God would be if one existed is a theory I thought fun to explore. It's your hypothesis that I'm trying to expand on and play with. I'm not trying to say you have to believe in God just having some fun with views on him
Mentions:
1035358 [1035358]
· Tulinz [1864210]
CatHead [1581564]If such a thing as gods were to exist, I think there's only space for them at the beginning of time. The Universe seems to continue as if there are no gods exerting their power now. I like the image of a sad lonely man who created something to keep him company, he had great plans for it but its all gone to s**t and now he's forgotten about it and moved on. I don't believe that image, but I enjoy it.
Nothing says that gods must be anthropological.
I think, also, it's fine to set up a debate with parameters of your choosing. There's nothing wrong with hypothetical discussions you don't believe in.
As for Santa, I believe they are a robot army built by the Chinese that run off milk and cookies . There couldn't possibly be one Santa, that's clearly a lie. There are thousands upon thousands, that's how it seems that he is in different places at the same time. Individually, of course, each robot uses magical reindeers to fly them from place to place.
That's more along the lines that I see it. Hard to see any evidence that any God is mucking about now a days. Seems like he had a plan and then thought screw it I tried.
I'm not sure the Chinese like us enough for all that trouble. I like that kept the magic reindeer though. Are the elves just kids in sweatshops then. Come to think of it a lot of things that Santa gave me did have made in China written on it somewhere
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CatHead [1581564]
Fair enough, if a creator existed then humans are an accident, the creator would obviously be a Physicist and the real experiment was the creation of the universe as an experiment in Physics, any form of biology is just a flaw, we are nothing more than a foreign pollutant on a petri dish which is evident is the fact that the universe is so large and life occupies a miniscule part of it. The creator wouldn't even know we exist and if they ever found out would most likely abandon the experiment and start again with different variables to prevent further pollution.
Does God have helpers to help him 'manage' Earth and the billions upon billions of other stars and planets in the universe? Where does he find the time to supervise all of these at the same time?, let alone time to eat!. And what does God eat anyway?
johnnyrambo [635043]Does God have helpers to help him 'manage' Earth and the billions upon billions of other stars and planets in the universe? Where does he find the time to supervise all of these at the same time?, let alone time to eat!. And what does God eat anyway?
Souls, the more tormented the better they taste.
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johnnyrambo [635043]
johnnyrambo [635043]Does God have helpers to help him 'manage' Earth and the billions upon billions of other stars and planets in the universe? Where does he find the time to supervise all of these at the same time?, let alone time to eat!. And what does God eat anyway?
He outsources it all to a call centre in India which is why nobody ever gets their prayers answered
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johnnyrambo [635043]
http://www.christplus.net/2014/09/06/what-does-science-say-about-gods-existence-this-reality-will-give-you-hope/
MadameButterfly [1035358]Fair enough, if a creator existed then humans are an accident, the creator would obviously be a Physicist and the real experiment was the creation of the universe as an experiment in Physics, any form of biology is just a flaw, we are nothing more than a foreign pollutant on a petri dish which is evident is the fact that the universe is so large and life occupies a miniscule part of it. The creator wouldn't even know we exist and if they ever found out would most likely abandon the experiment and start again with different variables to prevent further pollution.
So, you feel if there was a god he would have to be like we are to a petri dish? I like the petri dish comparison, though I think that if god were to exist that he would have to disobey the laws of physics as we know them and therefor would not have to be physical. Just like to the simple molecules in the petri dish we have to be much more complex then they are to have that experiment be successful. I agree that we could be a mistake though. Life as a whole seems to destroy everything around it
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1035358 [1035358]
Tulinz [1864210]MadameButterfly [1035358]Fair enough, if a creator existed then humans are an accident, the creator would obviously be a Physicist and the real experiment was the creation of the universe as an experiment in Physics, any form of biology is just a flaw, we are nothing more than a foreign pollutant on a petri dish which is evident is the fact that the universe is so large and life occupies a miniscule part of it. The creator wouldn't even know we exist and if they ever found out would most likely abandon the experiment and start again with different variables to prevent further pollution.
So, you feel if there was a god he would have to be like we are to a petri dish? I like the petri dish comparison, though I think that if god were to exist that he would have to disobey the laws of physics as we know them and therefor would not have to be physical. Just like to the simple molecules in the petri dish we have to be much more complex then they are to have that experiment be successful. I agree that we could be a mistake though. Life as a whole seems to destroy everything around it
No it wouldn't have to disobey the laws of physics as we know them because the laws of physics as we know them only apply to our universe, "outside" our universe different laws may apply (which is what makes the whole "nothing can come from nothing" argument most creationists are fond of moot) because our universe was not created inside itself, our laws didn't begin until the universe was a few Milli-seconds old (which for the big bang was a long time). The petri dish was just an analogy, something like this couldn't be grown in a lab. If we are assuming the universe was created in a botched experiment and we are assuming there was also a central point or "big bang" it would require something more along the lines of particle acceleration. Maybe our universe is just the product of slamming two of what passes for atoms outside this universe together. Time could also be different, billion of years for us could be mere milli-seconds for them since our Time is a product of the big bang so only exists within our universe bubble. As for "
So, you feel if there was a god he would have to be like we are to a petri dish" no, as I said the petri dish was an analogy, don't try to put words in my mouth or twist what I say to suit you. Again if we are to assume we are the result of an experiment in splitting atoms then "the creator" would be around the same technological level as us since it would be fair to assume that a more advanced species would have already learned all they need to know from slamming atoms together and as time passes for us whereas for them it stays stagnant we would surpass them technologically.
Mentions:
1035358 [1035358]
· Tulinz [1864210]
MadameButterfly [1035358]Tulinz [1864210]MadameButterfly [1035358]Fair enough, if a creator existed then humans are an accident, the creator would obviously be a Physicist and the real experiment was the creation of the universe as an experiment in Physics, any form of biology is just a flaw, we are nothing more than a foreign pollutant on a petri dish which is evident is the fact that the universe is so large and life occupies a miniscule part of it. The creator wouldn't even know we exist and if they ever found out would most likely abandon the experiment and start again with different variables to prevent further pollution.
So, you feel if there was a god he would have to be like we are to a petri dish? I like the petri dish comparison, though I think that if god were to exist that he would have to disobey the laws of physics as we know them and therefor would not have to be physical. Just like to the simple molecules in the petri dish we have to be much more complex then they are to have that experiment be successful. I agree that we could be a mistake though. Life as a whole seems to destroy everything around it
No it wouldn't have to disobey the laws of physics as we know them because the laws of physics as we know them only apply to our universe, "outside" our universe different laws may apply (which is what makes the whole "nothing can come from nothing" argument most creationists are fond of moot) because our universe was not created inside itself, our laws didn't begin until the universe was a few Milli-seconds old (which for the big bang was a long time). The petri dish was just an analogy, something like this couldn't be grown in a lab. If we are assuming the universe was created in a botched experiment and we are assuming there was also a central point or "big bang" it would require something more along the lines of particle acceleration. Maybe our universe is just the product of slamming two of what passes for atoms outside this universe together. Time could also be different, billion of years for us could be mere milli-seconds for them since our Time is a product of the big bang so only exists within our universe bubble. As for " So, you feel if there was a god he would have to be like we are to a petri dish" no, as I said the petri dish was an analogy, don't try to put words in my mouth or twist what I say to suit you. Again if we are to assume we are the result of an experiment in splitting atoms then "the creator" would be around the same technological level as us since it would be fair to assume that a more advanced species would have already learned all they need to know from slamming atoms together and as time passes for us whereas for them it stays stagnant we would surpass them technologically.
You get so defensive. I wasn't putting words in your mouth or twisting what you were saying. I asked a single Question and you seem to have taken your whole analogy back. If we aren't like the Petri dish and God isn't someone using a Petri dish I don't really know where you were going with that. Also you're just arguing simantics by saying he wouldn't disobey the laws of physics he would exsist outside them.
I do enjoy the theories of being part of an experiment though and it seems to reason that if we were created byssmashing these, I'm just gonna call then atoms for the sake of ease, together then we would be moving impossibly fast making your time dilation theory sound.
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1035358 [1035358]
· Tulinz [1864210]