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Busting...Nerve?

Started by Hot_N_Steamy [243063] on in General Discussion.

409 replies · 5.63k views · thread synced · 5 days ago · View on torn.com

Posts archived: 410 / 410 posts (100%) · the total is Torn's reply count + the opening post at the last fetch

180 [890348]
bogie [148747]
Chedburn [1]
digitalnash [1825532]
Chedburn [1]
digitalnash [1825532]I am done. I am not going to bust at all until things change. Unlimited use LBC was fine, even though it was expensive. It was better when it was free. Now that they're consumable, and cost 4+ million each, f**k the jail.

I guess I'll never see that 2000 bust merit.

My question to Ched... how is this system any better than what it was before? There is no difference in having the jail full, and being impossible to bust anyone, and the jail being empty. You just destroyed an avenue to merits and income for more determined people.

The graphs are available in the City Hall, so there's no reason to make statistics up any more.


Why don't you take a look at those graphs today, Ched? You're completely ruining the system, and what used to be one of the more fun things to do in the game.

Why don't you hire a proper tester to emulate the levels and bust attempts of a few thousand people instantly, rather than let people in the production servers waste nerve and money testing your tweaks?

I'm not sure what you mean. The graphs are looking good. There's still a steady flow of successful busts and bails. In just the last hour there have been 125 successful busts, 41 failed busts and 26 bails. Busting and bailing is still very much alive.

It really isn't :/ Now that busting gives less experience than crimes there is basically 0 incentive to bust... That update killed busting. I imagine a lot of people just aren't aware of how low the experience gain is yet... I for one have entirely stopped busting now, as has most of my faction. More and more people I speak to are completely stopping to bust now that it's the most pointless use of nerve.

It's ridiculous i have over 7000 busts and i have to wait around for a person to fail a pickpocket crime to even attempt a successful bust. Everything else is a gamble up to the sweet shop and anything past that is impossible.

Mentions: Alexstrasza [1825532] · bogie [148747] · Chedburn [1]

Exchange [978092]

Couldn't agree more.

After trying to bust 10 times, and being successful 4 times out of 10,
Then spending roughly 1 hour in jail for being caught atleast 5 times out of those 10!

If i do this daily..i can manage at max 5-10 Busts a day, Forget CE part for now.
This will take roughly 3 years for me to reach 10k busts, if i do this regularly just to get 2 more merits?

CE was a great incentive earlier, busting too was relatively much easier.. We could do upto 100 Busts a day!
Ok Ched, You want to make busting hard. Done. But give us some incentive to bust.

Infact, CE gains should be much higher now (But capped).
Chedburn [1] Admin Developer

That's the idea. To remove some of the incentive from busting and to limit busting to either...

a) Something interesting to do instead of crimes occasionally
b) Getting a friend out of jail or being a good Samaritan
c) Being a hardcore buster for the hell of it

I totally understand the frustration, when it comes to changes like this, I often see the 'end game' rather than the short term / middle term. I know that boosting crime experience was a method of reaching PA status or a quick way to recover a nerve bar, and that is now gone. I'll be looking at reducing the frequency of jailings on some higher-up crimes with the committee this week to make up for this. I won't announce these minor changes, but I expect you will notice them.

The end game is simple, with the new crimes system (and eventually new organised crimes system), none of this will really matter as it'll be a constant upwards progression with very little stagnancy like the current systems.
bogie [148747] Admin Staff

That isn't really a compromise that will benefit anyone... especially those with PA aspirations or those already in PA teams ... We already avoid any crime that gives a jail result like the plague as it is :/ The loss of experience from a jail result is 100% not worth doing. Sorry Ched but you won't find a single person in a PA team attempting anything but a 'safe' crime...

All you'd achieve from reducing the amount of jails in crimes is giving those who want to continue to bust (for whatever reason) LESS people to bust... That solution would just make the current situation even worse for busting... those who are doing crimes that give jail results don't care about their crime experience... they just want the cash that comes with those crimes...

I can understand what your goal is with this and appreciate that you want to make up for it in some way, but sadly that suggestion just isn't it for those above reasons... and with that end game goal in mind I'm struggling to think of anything either :/ Without prior knowledge of crimes 2.0 I fear we're just going to have to bear with it for the meantime...

...% CE for self busting plz? <.<
RichardV [1103695]
Wall_Street [984129]Ched has turned into a customer service jedi


Took long enough haha. Its nice that we actually get some responses from the overlords.

Mentions: Batman [984129]

Thufir [1569410]
Chedburn [1]That's the idea. To remove some of the incentive from busting and to limit busting to either...

a) Something interesting to do instead of crimes occasionally
b) Getting a friend out of jail or being a good Samaritan
c) Being a hardcore buster for the hell of it

I totally understand the frustration, when it comes to changes like this, I often see the 'end game' rather than the short term / middle term. I know that boosting crime experience was a method of reaching PA status or a quick way to recover a nerve bar, and that is now gone. I'll be looking at reducing the frequency of jailings on some higher-up crimes with the committee this week to make up for this. I won't announce these minor changes, but I expect you will notice them.

The end game is simple, with the new crimes system (and eventually new organised crimes system), none of this will really matter as it'll be a constant upwards progression with very little stagnancy like the current systems.


I am disappointed, but not surprised by this. First, by knowing how little busting was suppose to mean to the game. Secondly, and more importantly I think, is that this really takes away from meaningful player choice, and creates more of a system of Min/Maxing cookie cutter playing.

As as newer player to the game (1100+ days), I realized that I would never catch up to the heavy hitters in battle stats. I was pleased to find that Torn had more options than just being a fighter. I could focus on crimes, build a company, or be a strong fighter. I decided to sacrifice my battle stats, and focus on crimes as a good way to make a meaningful difference for my faction. I view factions as one of the core game mechanics, and hence respect and value to your faction is a vital part of my game play. With busts costing energy I had a choice to specialize. Give up a little here, and gain a little here. Make my character fit a role that was not the only role available.

Now there is just the best way to play, and the not best way. Taking a meaningful choice that has both good and bad to it away from the game I feel is counterproductive to this games longevity. I fully agree as I have stated several times that busting had to be nerfed. What I do not see any reason for is that if busting gains you a comparable amount of CE as other crimes, why are any of the other changes needed? I think we will see as the information about the true CE value is learned by the masses, which at this point is not the case, busting will drop a lot more. That is fine, and not a bad thing, what is a bad thing is that busting still could be a way for people to play the way they want to play, and have one more choice that they can make. It is fitting and ironic that this is happening as another game I am interested in is about to come out which is Wasteland 2. This game appears to be the epitome of player choice, and meaningful options.

Why is it so important that busting be just a novelty? Why can't it be a viable choice for some to pursue as a supplement to CE building? All that is required to find the balance you are looking for is to alter the reward for busting, and clearly state the change. You do not need to give massive amounts of details, your last post is plenty for most people to realize they should stop. Part of the problem though is that this clarification, which I am grateful for comes in the 20th page of a forum thread. Why a few postings in the announcements could not be done I just don't. Yes you don't want to spend all your time writing announcements, but there is a balance that can be struck here. Engaging your customers is critical to any business, and not the waste of time that it seems to be labeled as.

Lastly, I am truely hoping that you are correct and that the changes to crimes/OCs make this change less important, but it begs the question of why not do them together, so they can be balanced together? I have been very optimistic about RESPO so far, but I must say that this last week or so is not helping that feeling.

Thanks for reading if you did.

/end rant

Mentions: Chedburn [1]

Foggy [939739]

The Death knell to one of the most fun aspects of the game for many of us. Busting is a crime, and should give equal CE to any crime in the game of equivalent difficulty. Plus it never gave that much to begin with, just an ability to gain CE using energy.

Ched, The Jedi of customer service says regarding busting:

"I know that boosting crime experience was a method of reaching PA status or a quick way to recover a nerve bar, and that is now gone."

Removing E to gain CE was enough by itself to kill busting. But, no, Ched has a bigger plans us peons can't see...lol...perfect example of "Throwing the kids out with the wash water"...down to 16k active daily players at least 30K Ched...when you going to quit throwing your long time playing kids out?

Jedi of customer service...lmao...why do I feel foolish thinking shit like this won't continue to happen? Plus statements like:

"I totally understand the frustration, when it comes to changes like this,"

If you played your own game you'd not make foolish statements like this...almost as good as the one at the time of the scamming legalization rule changes of telling us to "make them pay". As if we could ever do that with out wasting a tremendous amount of money or time.

You can waste my Money Ched....no big deal...but please "don't waste my time!"

One day you might appreciate this comment Ched, and see the wisdom in it, you obviously haven't in the past, and definitely don't appreciate it now.

I totally understand you wanting to improve "your" game Ched...totally as well as I am able, but not at the expense of killing long term players, making them feel stupid and foolish for choosing a game strategy, at the cost of other better choices that could of been made, by making major game changes negating years of work. You can't undo what you've done as a player quickly, but Ched, you can, and have in the past, with major game design changes. Almost comparatively in the blink of an eye negate years of work.

Ever thought of making game changes in increments...you know, like Removing E from busting, and changing it to nerve used' and then see what happens? Then later on changing busting CE gain from % to set amount? Slowly, with out causing so much discontent...

End of spiel...mainly because the majority of players will tldnr it!! Ched being one of them, making me have another one my "time wasted" moves here.
Chedburn [1] Admin Developer

Unfortunately that's just the way it is. For me to remain excited and interested in Torn, I have to chase perfection, or at least my vision of perfection. As long as I see us reaching it in the long run, I'm happy. If people use mechanics in a way I didn't intend (due to lack of foresight or misjudging the character of players - whatever) which I see as gameplay dumbing, I can't stand it. For example a Jail with no inmates.

If we have to lose 4,000 players in the short term to future-proof the site for the next ten years, so be it. If we did nothing, they would have gone anyway, plus more. We were already losing users at a steady rate before Respo due to the lack of advertising. I chose to put advertising on hold indefinitely several years ago until we were in a position where we could keep the majority of users who visit.

Basically, I'm chasing a dream, I'll do my best not to piss people off while I'm at it, but you're either coming along for the ride or leaving. Change is required for survival. Change is inevitable, and it doesn't end with busting - There's plenty more to come.
Batman [984129]

I really wish we could see old posts, some whiners here that years ago told us self busters to suck it up, well suck it up.

@Foggy I know it's hard for someone like you to understand but good customer service doesnt always indicate you get what you want. Ched's post was customer service 101, he showed empathy and heck even did a little paraphrasing. His old reply would be something along the lines of "tough shit, enjoy a ban" which after reading through some posts would be understandable if this wasnt a business
Otter [1821671]

Personally i have actually read this entire post. alot of good information in here and i have learned alot :P

and i can speak from experience, that i would MUCH rather have a Dev that is still excited to evolve a game, even if that evolution sometimes comes with some negative changes (in some peoples eyes) then a Dev that gets tired and bored of the game, and only updates for a paycheck, or stops updating entirely.

I have experienced that slow death on games before and it is not fun.
Dave [272331]

From what I see this is kind of like self-busting of old giving battle stats in that it was never foreseen... Only this time, noone knew what was really happening, people knew it gave experience (and good experience) but I don't think anyone thought it was a % of your total or more people would have done it. I suppose it now might lead to a situation where when the new crime system comes out there are some people who can make a killing from the top end crimes which everyone else has to spend years working towards. I suppose like battle-stats, with having people who are unbeatable, at the end of the day it is very annoying when you can't do it but it isn't really going to affect your everyday play :/
Donald_J_Trump [900972]

I'm willing to bet this will do serious damage to the number of people playing the game, or at least the new numbers of people joining.

- It's hardly worth risking doing crimes anymore for the crazy amount of jail time you get.
- Low level players especially won't do crimes so won't be able to level up and progress.
- Low level players can't afford the ridiculous bail prices either.

Stopping people from playing a game they invest time and effort (and quite possibly money for donators) for 12-24 hours at a time is daft. At least raise the cap on the 200 minutes to attempt an escape.
Batman [984129]
JohnMarston [900972]I'm willing to bet this will do serious damage to the number of people playing the game, or at least the new numbers of people joining.

- It's hardly worth risking doing crimes anymore for the crazy amount of jail time you get.
- Low level players especially won't do crimes so won't be able to level up and progress.
- Low level players can't afford the ridiculous bail prices either.

Stopping people from playing a game they invest time and effort (and quite possibly money for donators) for 12-24 hours at a time is daft. At least raise the cap on the 200 minutes to attempt an escape.

A crime game where there are consequences for committing crimes? Say it aint so! And I doubt this will affect lower levels doing crimes as there are still 20 nerds refreshing the jail waiting for them

edit- that being said Im not a fan of the real long end of jail times,if for nothing else because when someone sees they are in jail 24 hours there is a good chance they will log out,but I see no problem with not being able to bust 15+ people in one sitting

Mentions: Donald_J_Trump [900972]