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Xerneas' guide to making money - Trade/Stocks/Misc

Started by Chopper [1259590] on in Tutorials & Guides.

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Chopper [1259590]

So, I was talking with a friend in the chat, and we got started on talking about stocks. One thing led to another, and I though I might as well just make a little guide. And then it turned out to be a guide on the whole money making business. It's far from complete, and even farther from being perfect, so feel free to post additions and corrections. This is probably old news for anyone who's been playing for a while, but I hope it might be helpful for our newer players. Here it comes:



Xerneas' guide to moneymaking!


So, what's the secret to making money? There's really no secret. It's actually blindingly obvious. You make people give it to you in exchange for something else. That's all there is to it. I'll explain in some more detail further below. There are five main ways of making money.

  1. Jobs

  2. Trade

  3. Bank

  4. Stocks

  5. Company

  6. Casino

  7. Misc, Tips and Tricks
No, the order is not random: It's the order I suggest you do it in if you are brand new to everything. There are several reasons for this, which I will cover all in due time. Now, on to the first point on my list.




Jobs



There are two kinds of jobs you can take in Torn: Regular jobs, and company jobs. If this is your first day in torn, you can choose between three jobs: Army, Grocer and Casino. And, the pay in all of those are... crap. However, you will gain working stats, which will help you a great deal when it comes to applying for company jobs.



To take on a company job, you will have to be a minimum of level three. The first company jobs you get will not be paying a lot, but you'll still be able to secure 50-100k a day which is running in circles around the $125-$250 you can get from the starter jobs! There are also companies which pay a lot less, but have great specials, such as for example the fitness center. But, this is a guide to making money, so I'll assume you've gotten a job which pays atleast 50k a day. Now, what to do with your new found wealth?




Trade



Trade. The art of buying cheap and selling less cheap. How much you can make from trade depends on three things: How much money you have, how much time you have and are willing to spend, and lastly, luck.



At first, you will not be making much from trading. If you only have 50k to spend, there is a limit to how much you can buy at a time, and therefore, naturally a limit to how much you can sell. Stalk the trade chat, and the forums, and if you see someone selling something under market value, buy it. That's pretty much all there is too it, except: You must always consider how much you can get for it when you're selling it. Never buy if you are not certain you can get at least the same amount of money as you gave for it.



After you've bought the goods you're going to sell and earn your first profit on, all you need is a place to sell it. The two main channels of selling are the trade chat, and bazaars. Now, opening a bazaar can cost a lot of money. 250 points, which at todays value (80k, roughly) equals out to 20 millions. So, I will assume that you cannot afford a bazaar right now, and that means that there's one option left for you: The trade chat. You will get less for your items in the trade chat. Sometimes, a lot less. The trick is to pay attention to what others are asking, and then ask for slightly more than everyone else is asking. Though, of course, in a private message to the buyer, not directly in the chat. You don't want anyone to snipe your customer!



Most buyers are operating with a window of profits that can be stretched to some degree. If they are, for example, selling xanax at 850k, and buying them at 800k, they can most often be persuaded to give (again, for example) 805k for them, instead of the initial 800k. Demand is vastly bigger than the supply in the trade chat, and so most buyers are quite keen to make a deal. Again, do the negotiations in private messages, not chat or forum. You don't want anyone else to butt in and offer their goods for a lower price at you, forcing you either to lose profits or walk away.



After you've earned a bit of money, you can open up your own bazaar, and now you are the one waiting in the trade chat, lurking for fresh pray (noobs) with loot of which they have no idea of the value. Mwahahaha! Or something.




Bank



This one is really self explanatory. You deposit money for a set period of time, bank gives you interest. You can improve interest rates either by using merits, or buying the Torn City Investement Banking stock benefit block. Though, the last on is quite expensive: You need 1.5m shares to get the benefit, and at todays value of ca. $1000 per stock, that equals out to $1.500.000.000. That's 1.5 billion, if you can't read it.



The thing with the bank is, you need money to make money. The trick here is to deposit all the money you can (though still leaving enough to trade with) for one week at a time, each week depositing your profit and putting it in for a new week. Repeat that untill you have maxed out your bank account (around 2bil), and then start depositing it for two months at a time, as that is where you get the highest percent interest.




Stocks



To trade stocks, you need a stock ticker. They can be bought at the points building for 25 points. Oh boy. Stocks. They are at the same time really easy, and really difficult. Stocks and trading are pretty much the same thing in the aspect that the goal is to buy cheaply and sell expensively. Easy in principle, but oh so hard to do. There are some tricks and tips that will make it easier for you to see if a stock is going to increase or decrease in value, but there is also an aspect of luck and psychology involved.



The easiest way to determine where a stock is going, is to take a look at the forecast in the stocks «Info» tab. However, I haven't the faintest idea on what this forecast is based upon, and it's very often inaccurate, so I don't suggest you use it as your main guiding point. Now, if you will, move your way to the stocks «About» tab...



Now, to your left, you will find a lot of text on the companies history or something like that. This is completely unimporant and can be ignored, unless you wish to get a better insight in the cities lore. Or something. On your right, on the other hand, (hehe) is where the imporant information is. There are three fields lined up. The top one describes what the company/stock is or does. The second tab (not always present, more on this in the next paragraph) describes what the stocks value is dependent on, and the last tab tells you what the stock bonus is, and how many stocks you need to get it.



Now, for the actual buy-and-sell value of the stock, the mid tab is our main interest. It tells us what the stocks value is dependent on. For example, International School TC's (ISTC) value is dependent on the number of people enrolled in education courses, and Torn City Health Service's (TCHS) value is dependent on the amount of people in hospital. If there is no information on what the stocks value is dependent on... Well, just roll with the punches I guess? Look at the forecasts and the graphs and make an educated guess. Look for trends or patterns.



For the rest of this part about stocks, let's use TCHS as our example. As mentioned, the value of the stock depends on the amount of people in hospital. This doesn't mean that you can buy stocks there, hospitalize some people, and sell for a profit. We're talking a large amount of people before it makes any noticeable difference. So, when would be a good time to buy TCHS stocks?



How about right before the World War event? Or is that not a thing anymore? Anyhow, if you don't know, there have been World War Events on Torn, where everyone teamed together with other players from their own country, and then kicked the living shit out of each other. The country with the most wins would get a merit or something, and everyone became really nationalistic and other healthy things like that. Back to the point. During the world war events, the hospitals would be packed. Everyone were hosping everyone, and the value of TCHS stocks went through the roof. This is how you need to think in regards of stocks.



Thinking onwards, when might a good time to own TCHS stocks in the future be? If you get wind of HoF faction wars perhaps? You have to think for yourself here: If you think a time is closing in where more people than normal get hospitalized, that's a good time to buy TCHS stocks. It's the same way with all stocks see what defines the price, and think. Always think.



And then, of course, there's the stock bonuses. All stocks have a bonus, which you will recieve if you have the set amount of stocks. You can read what the bonus is, and how many stocks you need to get it, in the «About» tab in the stock market. While stock bonuses can be nice, they take a long time - often years - before they return the money you spendt on the stock to get them. Combine them with reading the market and buying cheap stocks and then selling them again expensively to maximize profits.



A full list of stock benefits can be found here: http://www.torn.com/wiki/Stock_Market#Stock_Benefits




Companies



Once you reach level 10, you can start your own company. I won't go into any depth on running a company here, because as a general rule, they won't earn you much. They take a lot of time, money and effort to make a profit. Many never do at all.



I'll mention the two easiest ways of making money on companies here. Number one: Buying and selling them. Buy them cheaply, sell them less so. The drawback here is, it takes time. And, if the employees of the company you are selling leave in the meantime, the value sinks. Immensely.



Number two: Sweet shops. Get them to five stars, and many workers work for free, because they want the special (energy drinks). Some even charge their workers one or two cans a week just for being allowed to work there (and they don't pay them either) and that is in addition to the profit the company makes. Fitness centers also get away with paying their employees next to nothing because of the nice specials (statgains). But, that is also only once they reach five stars.



Oil companies also makes nice profits, but damn... prices. To summarize: You'd better have a big fat bank account before you start a company, and you need to learn from someone better than I to learn how to run them.





Casino



Just putting it here for completeness sake. Do it for fun, not to earn money. In the long run, you will lose. I repeat. YOU. WILL. LOSE. MONEY. Unless you're damn good at poker that is.* If you have to gamble, I'd suggest the slots. You can also do a google search on roulette strategies, to see how to have a better chance of turning a profit there. However, let me repeat this once more: If you want to earn money, STAY AWAY FROM THE CASINO. There. If you haven't gotten it by now, I can't help you.

*Warning: You are probably not good at poker. Watching movies, TV, and having poker nights with your buddies may make you think you are - but you're probably not. The guys that play poker in the Torn casino, are mostly damn good at it. Be warned.




Misc, Tips and Tricks


  1. Don't be in a rush. Sometimes you can earn more money by waiting and keeing an eye on the market. If someone isn't willing to pay what you want for something, (if that is indeed what it's worth) wait and find someone who will.

  2. Remember the risks! Big risk + small profit = no deal. Big risk + big profit = ... consider it.

  3. If you have more money on you than you are comfortable with, (and your bank account isn't finished yet) you can keep it safe from muggers by putting it in a trade with a friend. Make sure it's someone you trust though, and remember trades are automatically canceled after six hours.

  4. Once you turn level 15, you can start travelling. Fly to other countries and buy items cheaply, and sell them more expensively in Torn. There's especially good money in buying flowers. As a standard, you can carry 5 items. This can be improved by +10 by having a PI with an airstrip and a pilot (you can rent one too), the bonus from working in a cruise liner (+2), Buying small/medium/big suitcases (+2/3/4 respectively (do not stack)), and the faction bonus cumber (up to +10). The maximum amount of items you can bring with all bonuses are 31.

  5. Once you have become a surgeon at the medical job, you can revive people. People are willing to pay anything from 800k and up for a revive keep an eye out in the trade chat. Reviving costs energy though but, the energy cost can be decreased by the faction bonus salutary.

  6. Some people are willing to pay money to have you bust them out of jail.

  7. You can earn money by attacking people and losing. This is called slutting. You won't earn much from it (more the higher level you are) but it's something. If you can attack someone and successfully run away from them, you earn more, as successful runaways are more difficult to pull off.

  8. If you are skilled with graphics, people are willing to pay surprisingly much money for signatures, profile pictures and logos. Make sure you know more than copy pasting first though, please?
  9. You can also earn quite a bit from mugging other people. Keep in mind though, you'll earn less for each consecutive mugging, so wait a bit between each time you mug the same person. 1 day seems to work fine for me, though it could be more or less for the optimal result. Could anyone chip in on this? Mugging target can be difficult to come by. Try to find inactive accounts. You can also buy lists of mugging targets from the forum/trade chat, though they are mostly very common targets, and are thus almost always either poor and/or always in hospital.
Lastly, and most importantly... Be honest. You'd be surprised at how fast word gets around, and pretty soon you won't be able to make deals with anyone. You can change your name, but ID's are forever.



Also, one more thing... It's for sale. Not for sell. For. Sale. Yes, that is directed at you, trade chat.


Questions or comments? Post below!
kyle8048 [488020]

You should have a massive paragraph on flower running as it's without doubt one of the best ways to start of making money.

Also, your paragraph on the casino isn't great. The lottery has an expected profit of e(x)=1, more if you can get a lottery voucher for under 1m. Also, it's wise to always use all your casino tokens on the $100 slots for the chance to win the jack pot.

As for poker, to make small amounts of money you don't need to be that good. If you stick to the smaller tables, the calibre of players is extremely novice.

No mention of mugging

Too much mentions of companies, these aren't a great way to make money regardless.

little mention of slutting/runaways

Trading: get a bazaar as quick as possible

Only buy and sell useable items. Stick to items that have a demand. Strictly to drugs/meds/boosters/cans/fhc/dps/flowers

And quite frankly your paragraph on stocks is done by guess work. This is not the best way to trade stocks.





Good start on the guide, but I think it needs a little work
Beerstein [1322136]

^^^Pretty much all this, I already wrote a guide on it as well but if you see anything I missed let me know and keep up the info, more is always good. A note about trading normal stuff though, most major traders have taken a break due to the whole mugging thing going on. TBH a better way to profit would be buying others cheap bulk items in a bazaar then mugging them and reselling their items in a more cautious manner than them (IMO)

http://www.torn.com/wiki/Beersteins_Guide_to_Making_Money#Mugging
kyle8048 [488020]

I'd completely redo your point on stocks.

It needs 3 separate paragraphs: bb's, mid tier investing and high tier investing.


Also try and get someone with experience successfully investing to write it.
Chopper [1259590]

I agree that I should give flower running a paragraph or five, it's simply one of those things I haven't had time to do yet. I am currently working on a way to determine the highest amount of profit per minute, taking into consideration the value of the flower, the time it takes to travel and the loss of energy. I am planning to finish that first, so that I can release those two at the same time.

I was not aware of that forumla for the lottery. I'll add something about that as well. I meant to add something about winning the jackpot at the slots, but it seems it slipped my mind. Thanks for reminding me. :)

As for poker, even though the level of the players at the smaller tables aren't that good, I assume that most players reading this isn't either. For a full table there is 7 loosers for each winner, so the odds aren't great. Unless you have an inkling of what you're doing that is. :)

Mugging, slutting and runaways are all mentioned under misc tips and tricks. The concept is very simple, so I didn't think it deserved it's own paragraph.

As for companies, if I didn't mention them, it would just leave questions unanswered. It might not be obvious right away that companies are bad investments, and this is a guide for beginners after all. :)

Regarding your points on trading, excellent suggestions, and I shall add them both. I know that the stocks part needs a bit of work, and I was actually hoping to get some input on it from more experienced stock brokers here. I didn't think anything of it was straight forwardly wrong though - would you mind expanding a bit on that?


Chopper [1259590]

I'll make a mention on that as well. I had completely forgotten to add anything at all about mugging, so for now it's just a mention in misc. I'll make a bigger point of it when I edit next. :) Thanks!

Also, I had no idea there already was a guide on making money... This whole thing seems a bit redundant now. x)
Beerstein [1322136]

TBH the amount of info you're going to get from top investors is limited, that's why I offered more generic advice in my guide, if you start dumping specifics you create competition. Your best bet is to become a successful investor yourself. In mine I chose to guide people in the right direction so they could learn the specifics. Investing is a lot like poker though, the guy with the better play wins.

As far as the lottery one goes, funny story when I tried posting that I got flamed and downvoted because I was selling 1b in vouchers at the time, since no one cared or listened I just went off and won the lottery instead. I'd say that showed them but it really didn't as evidence currently shows. The short of it is the lottery is at worst 50/50 fair odds, and at best in your favor, there is no losing with the lottery, at least not if you have enough money to start (which is no small amount).
kyle8048 [488020]

I doubt a lot of people in Torn have a grasp on statistics. It's the same people that think poker, bj and other games are rigged.

A lot of people don't realise the lottery has better odds than any other casino game vs the house. (poker and bookies being exempt as there are way too many external variables).

As for stocks, writing a piece on how to make money will only increase competition in an already tight market. Not that it matters you won't be competing against me. It really is as simple as buy low, sell high.

Investing in stock bonus' should be an easy paragraph. weekly/monthly returns are easy enough to estimate.
Beerstein [1322136]

True enough, speaking of which it's about time for my yearly update on the stock benefit values in my guide though I'm pretty sure almost all the numbers have held up yet again (minus fhc). Funnily enough my mugging section managed to remain accurate through the combat and mugging changes.

All that said I may have to win the lottery again (via proxy though, I'm sure I can find friends that want the merit).
mug [553318] Committee Committee

@trading
i wouldn't recommend mentioning their 50k, they wont be able to trade much until they have around 25-50m since most items worth trading cost 10-30m where you can easily buy 500k to 1m cheaper and profit off it.

everything kyle8048 said was a must add if you wanted this guide to be a good one. the bazaar thing is much needed to be mentioned in this section as well as the flower running section that you should add.

also either link or mention to them that they should look through the trade forums and look at the threads with the most thumbs up votes to get an idea of what is worth wild to buy and sell.

@stocks 100% agree with kyle it needs a complete rewrite. I suggest you beg kyle to write it, i'm sure he's sick of getting how do i questions anyways. maybe i will bug him more with stock questions and edge him towards it xD

@companies
i dont think buying and selling works to good these days. Though i am a high end company seller and i only work with TV's and oil rigs. A lot of people have quit the game and money is harder to come by and selling takes a lot longer for a reasonable resale. I would never suggest buying and selling companies to anyone until 10 stars came out as that will revive and spice up the market. Cruiselines used to be an amazing company to buy and sell because you could hold it while making 10m a day and look for a resale... sports teams aren't going for much and i've seen people trying to sell them for months now with no luck.

The only thing i would recommend is that they buy or rank a crappy company that has the worst specials in game and hope 10 stars release buffs the company and a resale for a huge profit would be great. IE toy shop, cyber cafe, lingerie store... companies no one wants to run basically

@casino the only things i would consider advising anyone is the bookies or poker.
boo [1544641]

I posted this somewhere else, so I'll post this here...


--


I think you'll find it difficult to get too much information out of people about this. The more people that know how to play stocks well, the less profit there will be for those who know.

My advice is to go through the stocks, find ones that have a cyclical trend (or close to), work out the av. high and low points of this trend and work from there. Set stock graphs to 6mths for example to get a brief overview of how the stock does.

A little ex. for you -

Lets say ABC typically trades between at $50 and $100.
If you wait too long for shares to decrease in value, they will be bought by other players.
You need to find the right balance in price where shares start to be bought by other users when the stock is dropping, and what price shares start to be put up for sale when the stock is on the rise.
Players may on the whole decide that they will buy the shares at $65 to make sure they can buy in the the stock before it sells out, and pay put shares up for sale at around $85 to ensure that there is enough time for shares to sell before the stock starts to fall again.


I hope this gives some understanding of what you need to start to do to make money.
I didn't want to give any direct answers, but I have given you the method of finding the answers!
You could probably learn most things you need to know, and get familiar with the market by observing specific stocks for about a month.

(I play stocks, and check the market a few times a day to make new investments or watch specific stocks' behaviour that I invest in regularly)