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Morals in Torn?

Started by CastleQueen [1735522] on in General Discussion.

89 replies · 1.28k views · thread synced · 12 days ago · View on torn.com
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CastleQueen [1735522]

Torn being a crime themed game, a lot of the gameplay is obviously based on things that would be considered immoral by most people in real life, like beating people up and taking their money, stealing stuff, assassinating innocent political leaders etc. Because of this, the argument "It's a crime game" is often used by players to defend all and any aspects of gameplay decried by anyone as 'immoral' - this is such a frequently used phrase that searching 'crime game' in the forum search yields 9 pages of results...(http://i.gyazo.com/b94a607c73847842ce7a0d5494a45c0a.gif)

However, the majority of players claim they are reluctant to scam others, and many are also reluctant to 'buy mugging' and other 'dodgy' methods, so I'm curious how many people, or more accurately, what proportion of active players actually have 'morals' in the context of Torn, and what people actually consider immoral...

Which (if any) of the possibly 'dodgy' things in the poll below do you consider immoral and why?
Do you think morals are even still relevant in a game which is supposedly based on crime?

TL DR: Answer the poll (honestly please, it's anonymous :P), and discuss...
You can pick more than one option.

My personal opinion on this (if you care, which you may not, but you can read if you're bored I guess...):

I see it as an RPG game which just happens to have this 'theme' of crime to make it cooler or whatever. No, I wouldn't set random warehouses on fire in real life, but this isn't real life. Morals in real life don't really correspond to the things by the same name in torn but you can make comparisons and there are some things that I wouldn't feel comfortable doing, part of gameplay or not...

To be honest, I think if you were to 'change the theme of the game to something boring like, I don't know, school for instance, I think 'crimes' in Torn would correspond more to something like work- boring but you eventually can do harder stuff for more rewards. I think the rewards for crime are probably too meagre at the moment to have much of a real effect on most ordinary players incomes (unless you can already do PAs) (until Ched fixes it), but theoretically it would be closer to that than to crimes in real life.

What probably would correspond to real life crimes would probably be, say, scamming someone- and there are different levels of how immoral this could be, like killing babies vs stealing a packet of crisps from a shop in real life. I think most people would say scamming someone who really trusted you like a friend or faction member is worse than just sending mails advertising 'investments' and a lot of (thought not all) scammers are probably reasonably trustworthy to their friends, else they wouldn't have any...

Another aspect of the game commonly considered immoral to some degree is mugging when in connection with trading. Is it immoral to buy mug someone if, in all likelihood, someone else would've done it anyway? Or do you choose not to buy mug only because you don't think it's worth the bad rep, but you would if you could say, buy anonymously? Would that be wrong? What about bountying or otherwise keeping someone (possibly a random new player) in hospital just to get them to react for your amusement? Or taking advantage of their lack of experience- e.g getting them to slut for you at much lower rates than they could get by convincing them that 10k is a lot of money?

Maybe I'm reading into this a bit too much, but I'm genuinely curious what people actually think about this, especially if you were to ignore the reputation thing... Would you be as morally good a person if you could do everything anonymously? (Honestly, I probably wouldn't.)
Heisenberg [1574771]

Sharks are everywhere, you need your wits about you or you fall victim to scammers, simple. Everything goes, I don't form bonds with people online but even if you do, still only trust yourself.
bogie [148747] Admin Staff

I wouldn't betray someone's trust here, couldn't even scam a scammer... I don't think the ends justify the means on that. Many will disagree, but I just wouldn't want to sink to their level.
PsycWard [1579270]

I think it's all up for grabs and part of the game but
I don't buy mug...I did once then I sent the money back.
Personally I'm not really into mugging unless I don't like the person, they are a scammer or they mugged someone I know and I can beat them.
Kicking everyone from a faction is lame but I can see a time and place for it.
Scamming friends/faction members is pretty dirty.
Not paying for revives makes you a tool, IMO.

But all still part of the game
WIT_KAT [1641178]

I agree with this... I don't think I am better than anyone I just don't have it in me to sink so low... I wouldn't scam anyone... Especially a friend/faction mate... I had a friend on here I had known for about a year... and I trusted him... and he scammed me... I know this is a crime/warring game but it is also a tycoon/merchant game... and part of trade is to be able to find people you can trust to trade with you etc... without scamming and so forth... I see nothing wrong with expecting that of friends... Just my humble opinion...

KAT
JimmyJames [581165]

I feel sorry for people who don't trust anyone. This game would be absolutely boring without the friendships I've formed along the way.
Jai [918327]

Nothing in the game is "immoral" as such.

Morals are rarely, if at all absolute anyway.

It's about convenience, for example it is not convenient for me to scam people (the effort is too much, the backlash too harsh, I can gain lot more through friendship and trust). I can blindly trust two people{my wife and my co leader(real life best friend)} in the game, and they can blindly trust me too (although I doubt that they trust me so much)


Just don't do shit to others that you don't want done on yourself, that is my moral.


Ultimately we all have goals in this game, and our morality is based on that. Doing certain moral things may take me closer to those goals, some may take me farther. That affects our choice of morals the most.

But ultimately the player operating the account has their conscience, which can make them more or less moral than what is optimum for them.
OTHELLO [890484]

Its important to have fun. I play the game as such and while i do believe in morals, and play it in a way my conscience permits, i also know that many people play differently and find fun in things that i consider unethical/immoral. However, its their prerogative to play their way as much as it is mine to play the game my way
Wulfric [1767972]

Nothing that is part of the game mechanics is immoral, such as using the warring system to your advantage in your examples. I also have no problem with buying to mug, because again that is the way the game is set, though I don't do it because I don't like having it done to me.

Where morality comes in is how you treat other people in your dealings with them. I wouldn't scam players, and if I have promised something I will follow through. Do unto others, and all that.

But at the end of the day, it's a PvP game with a crime theme, and scamming is allowed. I just don't do it.
Phalen [1885311]

I think, that through the community, serious players can have their own 'Code of Honor'.
This can manifest in keeping one's word, never cheating a deal, or simply never letting a grudge go.

I suppose, such actions could garner popularity and infamy within the community itself, and the player's reputation could eventually have long-term ramifications, if it ever becomes prominent enough.



Given the size of the player base though, some substantial dedication to such behaviors would be required.
Tiresias [46989]

As far as mugging goes, I have been mugged relentlessly while inactive. So my viewpoint on mugging is I have only mugged other very long inactive players. But, I wouldn't mug or attack a new player or just anyone.

As far as factions go, I see that as being an organization where one is clearly a member of a serious group of individuals ready to fight so anything there is fair game between factions no matter how weak or strong. What is immoral to me would be screwing your friends and faction members to win a war or using other nefarious tactics.

Not paying people for agreed upon revives and busts is messed up.

Buying to mug is kind of f**ked up, but if you get screwed once you know to really trust who you are dealing with in the future.

Did not know one could mug a bazaar. Lol

Abusive messages are only appropriate if deserved.

Permanent abuse is only appropriate if deserved.

I know the last time I played poker I was up about 10 mil in a 250k/500k table (I think) and was talking with these dudes civilly through chat. Exiting the game I immediately got mugged for 13mil and was pissed, but I didn't retaliate or add them to my enemies list. I wouldn't personally do what they did to me. Not a lot of money for Torn necessarily, but it was the principle of the matter as to why I was kind of annoyed by it.

In a way, I think Torn has a kind of pirates code that is loosely followed by most. It's sort of like take what you can but don't f**k anyone too badly to get it.

These statements are in no shape or form the official policy of Torn.


mug [553318] Committee Committee

Theres a difference between playing the game and as bogie called it betraying trust. Or other words being a scumbag. Scamming everything from someone in a game they play to relax for fun is as big of a scumbag as it gets.

Everything else is part of the game. I guess canceling trade is pretty scummy as well but people buying or selling expensive items just know better to be dead during the trade.

so I guess being an honest criminal is morale while dishonest criminals are scumbags.
DogHead [1742498]

Scamming, I consider to be a scumbag move, and the trade-cancel-mug is pretty bad. You don't screw someone who you worked out a deal with, that's just lame.

Bazaar mugging is fair game. It may piss me off when it happens, but I know there's the risk, and if it's really bad, I can blacklist the person.

Not paying for a revive is pretty bad, but you know you will be bountied to shit if you don't, and revivers will learn who you are.

Kicking people out to win a war is a bit immoral imo too. It feels similar to joining a poker game, getting really lucky and winning a huge hand, and leaving immediately, and I think something should be implemented to prevent people joining immediately... but people are gonna do what they have to to win.
The_Totem [1763443]

Speaking of scamming, what do u guys think would happened if someone managed to scam the staff (huge somehow)? And very, very, unlikely, scammed Ched?

Also, it's not that I don't trust anyone period. I'm saying, one should not just trust anyone, especially if one were a newb. I met a few people (rarely) I could trust here.
Meggie [226814]

I was shocked to learn that scamming was legal (I think it was made legal while I was away, as I don't remember it being legal before my hiatus.) I play Torn to have fun because it's a game. It's not very much fun when someone scams you, or constantly harasses you by keeping in hospital 24/7. Yes I think there is a place for some "immoral" things which aren't really immoral, just not very nice, but if it's going to directly harm someone from having fun, enjoying the game or even quitting, I think that crosses the line. That being said, some people are just too sensitive and really should not be playing this kind of game if that's the case.

The only "scam" I've had in my 9 years playing was someone once not paying for a revive I gave. Other than that, there are plenty of good people who want to have fun, chat, and help others, despite this being a survival of the fittest game.