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Combat Improvements

Started by KermodeBear [2011760] on in Suggestions.

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Maltheal [577318] ×1

KermodeBear [2011760]

For a game that is heavily focused on combat, the combat in Torn seems far too simple. I'd like to see it become more interesting and collect ideas on how to do that. This is not a single idea post - this is intended to be a rather wide-ranging discussion, more of a brain storming exercise.

Locations

A fight doesn't happen in a vacuum. Well, right NOW it does, but in the real world it doesn't. A fight can happen in a dark alley, the middle of a crowded market, or the basement of an abandoned building used by the local Fight Club.

A location can add modifiers to the attacker or defender, to certain weapons, or offer unique combat options. Consider the examples below rough concepts to get people thinking and to show the concept in a general sense:
  • The Market: Filled with people and distractions, it's easy to sneak up on your opponent and surprise him - but with all of the distractions and obstacles, it can be easy to lose your target in the crowd.
    • Bonus to stealth for the attacker.
    • Reduction in critical hit rate and accuracy.
    • Target has a free chance to run away on 50% health remaining.
  • Torn City Bank: Quiet and orderly, a client standing still and talking to the Teller is an easy target. Armed security keeps a watchful eye for any trouble.
    • First attack has a greatly increased critical rate.
    • Armed security will make occasional attacks against the attacker.
    • Combat lasts only 5 rounds; a stalemate results in the attacker being apprehended.
  • The Hospital: Honorable men don't kick someone when they're down, but you're not honorable, are you?
    • With surgeons already on site, hospital times for the defender are cut in half.
    • Spend an action to grab some first aid supplies, restoring some of your health.
  • At Home: Some housing arrangements, like the private island, have guards. Other places, like a castle, may have traps.
    • Effects depend on where the target lives.
    • Makes choosing a property more interesting than "what gives most happiness," which means everyone lives in a PI.
With the number of locations in Torn, it should be easy to come up with 15-20 different locations in which fights take place.

How to determine where a fight happens? I think it could be based on user activity and where they spend their time. If someone spends a lot of time in the casino, for example, then they might be more likely to be found in the casino. A regular racer might be more likely to be encountered at the race track. Did someone just move a large amount of money through the bank? Maybe they'll be there.

Range

Combat doesn't always happen up close and personal. You could be shooting at someone from across the street or from the top of a clock tower. Some weapons, like a scoped rifle, may be far more useful at longer ranges than a submachine gun, which might to better at a middling range, while a knife, well. It's useless when your opponent is a block away but when you can smell the hipster pumpkin spice latte on his breath, it's your best friend.

Some sort of simple system for managing the fighting distance, and weapon effectiveness at certain ranges, would add some extra depth to the combat system. Maybe some locations wouldn't have all ranges available; inside of a hospital, for example, there may not be any long range combat.



All Firearms Matter

Aside from the odd mission or grabbing some merits, there's a very, very small set of weapons that see any use. It's great to have some gimmicks in the game, like the plastic sword, pillow, or harpoon, but too many weapons are objectively worse, in all ways, than others.

When is the last time you saw anyone using a Thompson machine gun, for example? What about a 5/7? Exactly. For how little these weapons are used they might as well not even exist in the game. What a shame!

All weapons should have a valid use case, even if that use case is rather niche. Some weapons should also have effects outside of simple damage. For example:
  • Minigun: When defending against multiple opponents, allows you to shoot at 3 opponents at once. The weight makes you easier to hit, however. Probably most useful for players with a higher defense that get dogpiled a lot.
  • Blowgun: Allows you to deliver a variety of debilitating drugs to your target. You trade off raw damage for a less effective opponent.
  • Flare Gun: It might not do a lot of damage, but it will light up your target - a great way to nullify stealth if you're being stealth-attacked often. At least you'll know who is doing it.
Certain weapons should also do better against certain kinds of armor. This rewards a player who scouts out his opponent a bit and takes the time to tailor his weapons to the situation. Perhaps some weapons might even have a bonus, allow a special action, or give extra respect depending on the location (it's thematically appropriate to impale someone with a harpoon down at the docks, for example).

Wear and Tear

Speaking of making more weapons viable choices - weapons to wear out over time. They can break or fail during a fight. Aside from being an attribute that might make a weapon a more viable choice (a rifle may do more damage, but perhaps it jams from time to time - are you willing to sacrifice reliability for a little extra power), weapons (and armor) that break also need to be replaced.

This would create a money and job point sink in the game, which isn't necessarily a bad thing, and also means that someone may actually buy that TMP you've had in your bazaar for the past six months.

All of a sudden a job in a gun shop or stealing weapons from the Army sounds a lot more interesting, especially if such jobs are the only way to get certain weapons. Some jobs may give bonuses to weapon malfunctions as well, or merits could be spent on it as well.

Approaches

How do you engage in a fight, anyway? Do you run right at your target with guns blazing, or do you stalk your target for a few hours and wait for just the right time to strike? Different approaches may offer different benefits, at a trade-off:
  • Plain Old Attack: 25 energy. Nothing special, you scope the place out and go for it.
  • Run n' Gun: 15 energy. You recklessly charge your target, giving up any chance at stealth. He sees you coming and gets a bonus to attack and defense. If combat ranges are implemented, the fight starts at the defender's preferred range.
  • Careful Approach: 40 energy: You wait, and wait, and wait until the moment is just right. The defender is initially unaware; the attacker may get a bonus to hit (or even a free hit), or armor isn't as effective, or stealth is guaranteed if you take the guy out in one strike. If combat ranges are implemented, you get to pick where the fight starts. You might even have a better chance of running away since you're prepared.
  • Stalking: 5 energy. Instead of just wandering around and attacking your opponent wherever he is, you can see at what location the target is lounging before you launch your attack (or, spend 5e to wait for the target to move to a new location).
  • Leveecius has recommended that stealth attacks cost extra energy.
Certain jobs or education paths may open up more options - or prevent them from being used against you.



TL/DR: Just a scattering of ideas with the goal of making combat more interesting and dynamic. What concepts would make combat more interesting for you?

Mentions: Maltheal [577318]

AshleyT [1432316]

Agree with everything but wear and tear, because that would be too much especially with rare and unique weapons that are difficult or impossible to replace, which is also the main reason suggestions including that get regularly shot down.

Plus, simple maintenance is all you really need, which doesn't cost a whole lot unless you need to replace a part. However, weapon jamming DOES sound interesting.

I would like to see taking cover being featured in some manner though.
Zziox [1022655]

Yeah agree with AshleyT on the wear and tear, it would make all the best armour drop in value.

I mean whats the point in buying a top teir set when you've been hit 10 times and it needs to be replaced?

Also I don't see why the defender should ever have an advantage like you mention in one of your Approach Scenarios.

& I'm not too fond of lowering the attackers critical hit chance either, kinda defeats putting loads of merits into it (in some regards).
AshleyT [1432316]

To be fair if you attack someone at their house, or faction HQ surrounded by allies, you're an idiot, so how would these situations occur is a good question. The attacker already has every advantage.
KermodeBear [2011760]

I don't think that armor would have to be replaced after only 10 hits; a very gradual degradation seems like it would fit better with Torn's play style. Some armor might be more durable and degrade more slowly too, and there may be skills / jobs that help even more. Perhaps there could be a job that has a special to restore armor pieces - it would increase player interaction (give me your armor and I'll fix it for a fee and send it back) and could potentially cause some, ahem, "situations" as well (it's such a nice helmet I've decided to keep it).
Alexjeff [2053975]

Everything sounds nice and some of it should be implemented. The wear and tear would be more realistic..... but maybe not let it break and be gone forever? Maybe a new shop opening in the city for gun/armor repair. Higher prices for more damaged and higher tiered items. I like the different zones, but it seems that people sitting in market buying items would be pretty safe..... because of the crowds. And with if you buy an item, and want to bank the rest of your money right away? Where would that person be attacked? Market or bank? Seems a bit complicated... but in the end, pretty nice idea.
KermodeBear [2011760]

What about being able to target certain areas of the body while attacking?

At the cost of reduced accuracy, you can attack certain parts of the body. This may be useful when attacking someone who has minimal armor on certain parts, or perhaps you can hit for effect - legs might reduce speed, arms might reduce dex, for example. Or, you can just hit the big attack button and things proceed as normal, just damage with no effect.
KermodeBear [2011760]

How exactly does strength increase the damage done by bullets? What are we doing here, throwing them at our opponents and yelling, "Bang?" It makes no sense.

Maybe strength should be applied only to melee weapons. Combined with combat ranges, where melee weapons would be generally superior at very close range, maybe it would make sense for this change to happen.
Taburisu [295365]

I like the idea of different e spent for different type of attack. Sniping also sounds fun too, but I'd rather have the different attack types. With the new chain system, factions would dogpile on bonus hits for the extra bonus. Why not the one who land the hits that spend 25e and the assists only spend 15-20e?

Wear and tear also sounds good, but I'm not sure how it'd be applicable. Especially for special weapons like snow cannon. Also, it might be a bitch for people who want to build weapon exp. I mean, 99% and suddenly your weapon broke? Ugh!


AshleyT [1432316]

The game explains it as you toughening your shooting stance to shoot straighter although I admit that sounds like total bs lol
Ominos [1962593]

Great ideas but absolutely against wear and tear. The mechanic was first implemented in games as a lazy way to extend and pad play-time. It is antiquated and should never be used again.

#DownWithWearAndTear
KermodeBear [2011760]

One of the reasons for wear and tear is also economic. Right now weapons and armor enter the item economy - and then they never leave. There is no destruction, only a growing supply - and hence no scarcity. No scarcity means prices will drop indefinitely. There should be some way for items to be destroyed, even if it is outside of combat mechanics.




KermodeBear [2011760]

All I want for Yule is an improved combat system and some additional interesting options.

What about a drive-by shooting? Your accuracy can be affected by your racing skill. Since you're driving by you only get one attack with a firearm, but the victim doesn't get to retaliate. There's a chance to be jailed afterward (for speeding, not for shooting people of course - this is Torn!).
AshleyT [1432316]

Can you imagine saving up for a Golden AK-47 and losing it to a system like this?

Plus anyone who is competent in weapon maintenance would NEVER have their weapon be outright destroyed unless faulty ammunition explodes inside it. Even then, it is recoverable through replacement parts.

The problem is prices are too high to support a consumable method of armour and weapons at the highest tiers, which is one reason this particular feature as a suggestion is shot down every time it surfaces.

Every part of all weapons and armour is replaceable meaning destruction would be nigh impossible. The reason we don't recover more in reality is that it's often cheaper to buy new than to try to recover the old and repair it.

Plus, how would the system handle unique weapons that have NO replacement available, as a small number of weapons in Torn were sold in the auction house and are the only ones in existance.

This game isn't Far Cry 2 where every weapon is readily available if your weapon breaks.