Faction Wars even more Unfavourable to New Players

I am posting this here because faction war respect is still a work in progress for Chedburn's team.



The update to respect has nerfed warring even more for new players because of the level-focused base respect.



JFA 2.0's best 5k chain earned 27k respect under the old system while this last one earned a measly 20k - a 26% decrease. I thought that Chedburn's goal was to produce the same respect results under the new system but to spread the respect out to each player?



Under the new system the max bonuses that can be obtained through a 5k are 4,292. Therefore we would need to earn 22,776 respect through all of the other 4991 hits to achieve our record 27,068 for an average respect per hit of 4.56. This is very close to the maximum hit noobs can make with their 3x fair fight bonus on the 1.66x multiplier near the end of a 5k and they would have to do this for the entire chain?




I believe that the difference in base respect is simply too high for the length of chains that are being promoted. The maximum hit I earned with the 1.66x multiplier on a 3x fair fight lvl 100 was 6.95 and for new players they were maxing out with 3x ff, 1.66x multi around 4.5 (but I will use 5 as the average to be fair). That is a 39% difference which translated across an entire 5,000 chain is a HUGE loss of respect just because of the base respect from levels. Nearly half of the potential respect earned is wiped out because they cannot hit higher levels? This seems totally unreasonable. This % should be much closer to something like 10%, not 39%. This change completely alienates the new players of the game who are extremely active, pay for subscriber status, and bring new life to the game. 39% absolutely shits on their hard work.

Stronger players earn more respect. That seems a fair concept.

Torn is a longterm game, so unsure why you think that young(er) players should earn as much as those that have worked on their stats for years and years. Those young(er) players will earn more respect in time. Be patient.

Where did I say they should earn as much?

when you said *it shits on their hard work*

you seem to quickly forget that it was like this in the old chaining too, even worse, yet no one had a problem with it. a lvl 15 hitting a lvl 15 gave 1-2 respect for a standard hit, VS a lvl 90 hitting a lvl 90 gave 6-7. THAT was a substantial difference. this is way way way way closer.

I think you are far over-reacting. Long chain chaining is at least 100 times better with this reduction in total Respect gained but higher average across all the non bonus hits.

I don't think you understand what I am arguing in my post as there are two parts and neither are comparing to old chaining nor the manner in which the respect is earned:

1. The recent bonus change was meant to provide the same level of respect, just pushed down to the filler hits instead of all stuck on a bonus. There is a 26% discrepancy and this is not being met. A 26% reduction in respect from the old bonus system to the new distribution is huge - how am I overreacting when his goal is not being met? We lose 7k on a 5k and potentially 14-15k respect on a 10k just from a change from multiplier-bonuses to the new distribution style.

2. There is a 39% discrepancy due to the base level of respect from what I can do versus newer players in 2.0. You are suggesting it is fair that JFA 2.0 doing a 10k very well (which would only earn 40-45k respect) is equivalent to JFA's shit chain where they missed all the bonuses pre-change? Just because JFA has higher levels they could screw up the bonuses so bad that they still are on par with JFA 2.0's best chain? If Ched's focus is on CHAINING, then 39% is way too high of a discrepancy. Percentages are very dangerous when you start moving into larger numbers, anyone using SEs proves that.

An approximation, but yes. I have to verify with main after their chain, unless you have the ability to calc what they've achieved so far in their current chain? They believe they were around 30-35k at 5 k hits and we only achieved 20k in ours yesterday. 2.0 highest before the change was 27k. We lost 7k as a result of higher emphasis being weighted on level for every hit since bonuses produce less

Its because its the same effort, we are still doing the same amount of hits, the same amount of energy spent.

It's a temporary problem. With the way torn has been levelling thanks to the new chaining system, your "new players" will soon have a sea of weak level 70+ to hit and score those juicy 6+ respect hits.

With regards to "effort", you are forgetting the efforts that high stat players put in over the years to get to the level where they can comfortably score a 3x fair fight multiplier on relatively higher level targets. Encourage your players to hunt for weak high level players that they can defeat and this discrepancy in your pre- and post-nerf respect gains will go away. It's obviously easier said than done but that was the point of this new chaining system -- to challenge factions.

i am inclined to agree with this. lower levelled players hitting within their range would be the exact same effort as high statted/levelled players. lets say that player 1 is lvl25 w/50k total stats and hits a level 27 with 48k total and player 2 is level 96 with 6.1b total that hits a lvl 94 wih 6b total. i do not see why player 1hitting a player with (close to) the same lvl/stats would be punished for not being a higher level with more stats. its basically the same effort.

I agree there should be a difference, but do you honestly think approximately 39% is reasonable? Have you considered how percentages work on high values? Say for example a 25k or 100k chain? Newer players trying to do a 100k will earn nearly 40% less on hundreds of thousands of respect. The 5k chain, which is small, is already a ~10k loss. 10k a ~20k loss, 25k a ~50k loss, 100k a ~200k loss. Hell it is not even worth it to chain if we are going to make that much less, we can just sit around and train for years while the game continues to get stale no problem - that is not an issue to you? You want drama but at the same time promote stagnant, boring, training. Also, you completely disregarded the main complaint I have to cherry pick the second point made:

• The recent bonus change was meant to provide the same level of respect, just pushed down to the filler hits instead of all stuck on a bonus. There is a 26% discrepancy and this is not being met. A 26% reduction in respect from the old bonus system to the new distribution is huge. We lost 7k on a 5k just from a change from multiplier-bonuses to the new distribution style. We were already making less respect than HOF factions, now we are losing even more respect.

You also spend the same amount of energy in gym as others yet you get less gains. That's basicly how Torn works. Marathon game where you get more rewards the longer you play.

Bug,

Level doesn't have anything to do with the respect gained. It's about the stats.

A level 20 with 1 bil in stats beating a level 90 with 1 bil in stats gains the same respect as beating another level 20 with bil in stats.



Its a fair fight bonus, not a fair level bonus.

Level plays a huge factor right now as it is the base respect before the fair fight multiplier is applied

Ah, I was misinformed. I thought it didn't matter as much anymore.

You're right, I just ran the numbers and I think that the base respect is fair and I will admit I was arguing only one side of the system incorrectly. The problem happens as a combination of the base respect and finding players within .5-1x your stats as a lower level player to achieve a fair fight.



For a HOF faction, it is easy to chain against other HOF factions and you will easily achieve 2.5-3x fair fights because other HOF factions are usually within .5-1x your stats. The huge total stat differential from using percentage-based fairfights on billions of stats creates a large advantage where higher-stat players can find 3x fairfight targets no problem. I can find targets no problem and hit 6+ consistently from just running down a group of players in HOF factions. For example, a player with 4b stats can hit anyone within 2b-4b stats which is a huge window; whereas a player with 4m stats has a stat range of 2m-4m. Finding a player within that range and at a high level is like finding a needle in a haystack because stats are so random at lower levels. Finding multiple fairfight targets even at your own level is extremely time consuming and will rapidly change as you continue to grow in stats. It's a constant cycle of finding new targets that high stat players don't need to do.



To make the game fair at the top end you have also reduced stat effectiveness, yet the same fairfight bonus calculation is applied to these fights (which are less difficult), as to low-stat fights (which the stat difference makes a more difficult fight). Not only is it easier for HOF players to find the right targets, their chances of winning is also improved; however, the fair fight calculation is the same.



What I propose is to keep the base level the same and make a small change to the fairfight bonus. I have no idea how come up with this equation, but the premise is something like this:



Total stats - Opponent % of your stats - Max fair fight

Current - ~50% - 3

100k - 35% - 3

1m - 40% - 3

10m - 45% - 3

100m - 50% - 3

1b - 55% - 3

10b - 60% - 3



Personally I think this would balance the fair fight and make target selection actually possible for younger players. You wouldn't be giving new players an advantage on the base respect, so they will still be earning less respect than HOF, but you would be expanding their fair fight window to compensate for the difficulty of target selection and the lack of reduced stat effectiveness that is seen at the top end. Right now the new players are getting dinged twice via level and fairfight and it is causing drastic effects on the respect earned.