Universal Basic Income

What are your thoughts on a Universal Basic Income? Do you think this is a good way to decrease the cost of welfare? Several studies have already seen some success with a UBI; would it work in America?

Ive seen studies (probably the same as you) and ive read an article about a place that actually implemented it (I think finland or Sweden... I don't exactly remember) for 2000 people with a certain degree of success. But on a national scale, its hard to say what the effect would be.

From what I read, some people put the money to good use so they could get a higher education, or be able to afford daycare for their kids so they could get a job. Others simply did nothing extra, and sat on their ass collecting free money. and that was just a microcosm of people, let alone an entire country.

But, being the person I am, I would argue against implementing it. Im sure some people would put it to good use, but id worry about how it could degrade our society, long term, into something closer to communism than to capitalism. I mean, even thinking about it in relation to my kids... I don't give them anything more than they NEED because I don't want them to be entitled, spoiled, brats, and that's something I would fear would happen to our country if it were implemented. Maybe not immediately, but as generations progress, and people grow up with UBI being the norm, I could easily see a collapse in American Industry due to lack of employees. I also think culture has a lot to do with how a UBI would work as well. One country might do better with it, while another may collapse due to it.

But, who the hell knows. IF it would work nationally and help our country, im all for it. But until there is evidence to prove that to be the case, im a hard no on a UBI, in America at least

I'd like it.

I could live the same low effort minimalist lifestyle I do today with the added benefit of not having to work.

Sounds like a win / win.

and this is what would happen most likely in America. you would have less than half of the US working and the rest living off of those who do. it would never work in the US. to implement the UBI system you'd have to have restrictions like TV permits and such to keep it from being abused and americans are far too spoiled for that.

its a hard no for me. hard no. I think you should have to work for what you have. that's just me though. I don't think people are entitled to homes, food, etc. like others do. I think it should be earned and in doing so you contribute to society. hell I want welfare restructured to have money limits, short term limits, and life long limits for all who are able bodied. then Id like to see the handicapped put on a new program so we can separate those with special needs and those who simply are needy.

depends...

It will be needed as we rapidly evolve the needs in the labour market.

I think a Universal Basic Income will only really become economically viable long-term once the vast majority of unskilled Labour is automated. I'm more curious how it's going to be implemented and the effects of it on essential markets such as real estate.

When the state owns everything because property ownership has been outlawed why will they need to give anyone anything? When everything is automated why will the elites need other people? Sure a UBI will work... it will work to pacify those willing to be pacified, but eventually why should the state even bother playing that game?

What's interesting is even with this, if they were shipped off to another country with a weak economy, they'd actually boost that economy and have a good lifestyle.

That said, what would it accomplish? People doing nothing?

I just had An epiphany on this subject (an epiphany for me anyway). I think a birth to death UBI wouldn' work (at least in America), but why not a temporary UBI? Just follow me on this.

What if, every person that was born, was allotted a 72,000$ UBI account at birth.That money can only be taken out in increments of 1200$ per month (that' 5 years total worth of money), at any time of the persons choosing after their 18th birthday.

This UBI would take the place of food stamps, wellfare, government subsidized housing, and any other welfare programs

1200$ a month is less than the cost of living, meaning a job would still be necessary to survive, BUT 1200$ a month could help struggling people stay afloat until they can find jobs and survive without using their UBI.

Once your UBI is used up, it' gone for good, but there would be no stipulations on when, where, or how its used. If u wanna buy 72,000$ worth of drugs over 5 years, go for it. If you wanna save your money until retirement, do it. Wanna invest that money in a small business or the stock market? Do it. Wanna go back to college and not have to work a full time job, use yiur UBI. There should even be the option to "gift" your UBI to others if that' what you want to do.

But once your UBI is gone, you no longer have any options to receive further government assistance. There will be no more welfare state. If you choose to waste your UBI by the AGE of 25, and you fall on bad luck, too bad. We could eliminate social welfare programs, while simultaneously giving more power/help to people than they've ever had access to before, while still making sure they aren' living dependant off the system, being lazy, and getting everything handed to them by the govt for free

If there was a UBI things would just be inflated so if you never make more than your UBI, you would be poor and unable to subside on said money.



Kinda like how even a homeless person in th US could manage to scrape up 5 cents (because pennies are so worthless people just leave them in the streets) but what practical thing can be bought for 5 cents?

it would certainly work in Torn.

The population would increase to 1 Billion in a day

Like other government income distribution programs in Canada, UBI will simply be another dive to the bottom.

The two points I have on UBI are that:

- There are parts of the population of industrialized states that will be unable to find work in the near future. Below an IQ of about 90 a person will become unable to translate written instructions into physical action, and even the US army (who really likes to keep its recruitment pool as open as possible) pushed to make it illegal to recruit anyone under an IQ of 83, as they determined that below that point they cannot get more good than harm out of a recruit. Combine this with the increasing takeover of technology for the sorts of jobs that are best suited to low-IQ people (such as litter collectors being required to drive cleaning machines, or warehouse workers being replaced by automated constructs), and you can result in a situation where as much as 10% or more of the population physically cannot contribute - the work is either automated, or has become too complicated. For this scenario, a UBI would make a better degree of sense than specialised benefits programmes, as the main goal will be to ensure a basic standard of living, rather than the current (particularly US and UK) efforts to get as close to 100% of the population in work as possible.



- UBI, as with all socialist systems, does encourage a reliance on the government and an abdication of personal responsibility. I know for a fact that even some reasonably intelligent people I know would be quite happy to just fall back on a UBI and never do anything with their lives. One may counter this by arguing that one simply needs to educate the population to see things differently, but all that has managed to do in the UK is create a divide. On the one side, there are those who come to the "logical" conclusion that as they don't actually have to do a thing (because the government does it) they shouldn't do a thing. On the other, is everyone else who decided to take a modicum of responsibility and has now flanderised the concept of someone who relies on state resources as some form of social parasite. This is not a healthy situation.



Personally, I'd like there to be a UBI system. But there are so many potential problems with it (personal laziness and state corruption being only two) that if I were in government, I'd hesitate to implement it.

You just described modern Darwinism for humans. We no longer have to fight for survival, so the gene pool has become dumber, and weaker. Now, with the intrduction of automation, people will once again need to fight to survive.

If you aren't smart enough, or skilled enough to perform a task that can't or wont be automated, then your now on the bottom of the food chain. The only thing preventing the culling of the "weak" from society are social welfare programs in first world countries keeping these people from starving to death or succumbing to the elements.

If our rate of progress keeps up, it won't be long before even the likes of Steven Hawking become inferior to our technologies. I'd assume that you don't want this, but the logical extreme of this trend would see all humanity invalidated.

If we can manage it, we don't have to let Darwinism kill of parts of humanity. If we let it run rampant, we must bear in mind that evolution is too slow to stop us all being wiped out.

I like this idea quite a bit, but I'm not sure how well a one size fits all would work. What about people with disabilities? Social Security/Medicare for the elderly? Those are programs that cost a lot but are difficult to replace.

the disabled need their own program.

the elderly should be the only ones getting SSI

if we separated these entitlement programs (I really dislike SSI being considered an entitlement considering you pay for it your whole life) it would be much easier to determine where the greatest needs are and how much we are being fleeced by ideas like yours.

Socialist constructs that exist outside of necessary programs that actually serve all within a capitalistic society breeds problems. roads, schools, are fine. paying some jackhole to sit home while everyone else works is bs.

furthermore we need to consider that some disabilities are scams. heroine addiction is not a disability for example. and even if it is I do not feel 1oz of sympathy for those people at all. many people who are recovering from many substances are able to find ways to contribute. its feel good ideas like this that ultimately bring the whole down because of abuse.

Agree entirely. SSI isn't a welfare program in my book because its paid into directly by Americans. But in general, SSI & Disability are there to help people with permanent issues (whereas I consider being old a permanent issue as well... its something non of us can avoid). Food Stamps and Welfare and Government subsidized housing etc, are there to help with short term issues, which could be fixed by having the 5 yeas of UBI to help out when needed. But, as I said, the UBI wouldn't be enough to pay all your bills, so the people who would normally be given free food, or get their bills paid by the gov, or pay little to nothing for housing, will now HAVE to work in conjunction with using their UBI if they want to survive. And only having 5 years worth of UBI means they either have to get their shit together, or let Darwinism take its course. No able bodied adult has an excuse not to work, and not be able to afford their bills, and this system would, in fact, end the welfare state. We would probably spend less money with a 72,000$ 5year UBI than we would if we kept entitlement programs the way they are now

Im going to digress from the OP to discuss your remark about heroin addiction, and my personal views/experiences. As far as drug addiction goes, I used heroin for 2 years straight in highschool, moved out of state after graduating to get away from it so I could get clean. Moved back home to NJ 2 years later, and started doing cocaine (I worked as a chef, so drugs were a normal part of the daily lifestyle), was doing that for about 2 years, and moved out of state again for good to stay off of drugs. Not only that, but my younger brother is in rehab out in California to try and get sober from alcohol addiction. So I have as much, if not MORE knowledge on the subject than most individuals, and I can say in all honesty that drug/alcohol addiction isn't a disease or disability. Its a habit, that your body becomes dependant on, but at the end of the day, will power is all it takes to kick the habit. You will go through withdrawal, and it will be terrible, but non of that is a disability or disease and shouldn't be treated as such. The only reason it is, is because addicts and their families needed a way to pay for extremely expensive rehab... so they found a way to push the bills off onto insurance companies. But, that's just how I view the situation as an ex-user and someone who will have lifelong addictive tendancies

my mother was an extreme alcoholic. ive seen it, ive seen her kick it, and ive seen her choose alcohol (while sober) over everything else. ive also seen other alcoholics kick the habit for good once they decided they wanted to, really wanted to. whether its a disease or not is irrelevant. even if it is it can be overcome without the need of medical intervention, especially long term medical care and basic needs benefits.

I don't really have a problem with rehab programs being paid for publicly, but only if those funds are paid back once healthy and working. we would definitely have some that would never pay, no system is perfect, but it would seriously limit the impact of how the system is ran now.

my best friends cousin (lol I know) is addicted to heroine. gets SSI and welfare. his house is paid for, bills paid for, gets a living allowance, and ....wait for it....state sponsored methadone whenever he "feels" he needs it. true story. sad but true. ive known the guy since I was a kid. heroine definitely changed his life. however his mom, sister, brother, and aunt all live on state aid completely. all are able bodied and all have managed to abuse the system in some way.

I don't think UBI, even in your form, will fix any of this. why? because there are people, even in these forums, who thinks its wrong to let these people get cold and hungry. so even when push comes to shove there will always be some bleeding heart willing to "fight for them" despite their useless nature.

This thread is great!