Ice - an honest question

This is not to be a thread for hate. I'm no fan of Trump, but that is completely irrelevant here. I'm looking for info.

I'd best start with the disclaimer that I've had a rough two years. At some point, I stopped watching the news to keep my sanity. I had too much on my plate without it. Yes, I've been living under a rock, pretty much.

Now the question. There have been many protests against ICE reporting illegal emigrants from the States. I gather that some of these protests are about the rather violent way this is (allegedly) done.

I say allegedly, because I don't know whether it is true or not.

But I hear there are also protests against the deportation themselves. This bit I don't understand. Doesn't the whole concept of illegal immigration mean that the immigrant isn't allowed to be in the country? And wouldn't the next logical step be that this illegal act be reversed, via deportation?

Why are people protesting that?

Oh, and please, in your answer, do include whether you are pro or against Trump and these deportations, but don't forget to provide arguments.

I will +r any serious response, whether I agree with the content or not.

Because that's how debate should be, in my view. Not a shouting match, but an exchange of ideas, wherevwe respect the other, even if we don't agree.

There are many progressives who believe in open borders and the nation should bend backwards to benefit foreigners. Many use the slogan "no one is illegal". They are protesting because they believe in just taking in literally everyone showing up at your borders and letting them benefit of the welfare state. Edit: check this out.

You have also lived under a rock In see.

There are many other problems with ICE, for instance the harassing of American citizens or people dying in ICE facilities.

Every human should have basic rights.

Furthermore, if you believe illegals should be deported you could have better Obama as president, that did send back much more people for far less money and with less cruelty.

Myself, I think the immigration system is broken, in the US but also in Europe, that's why many corporations can take advantage of cheap labour.

Want to fix the system, go after the corporation's using the flawed system to get cheap labour instead of people that just want to provide for their families 

But of course  many politicians are paid by them, so there's that 

Migration is as old as humanity itself. 

All humans should be treated with the same human rights as anyone else. 

A migrant who arrives in a new country to work should be respected for their contributions and awarded citizenship after they prove their integrity via work, tax paying and keeping to the laws of their new country.

ALL corporations and employers need to be held to a higher standard to ensure equality of rights, safety and pay for all employees. 

Judge the human on their actions not their place of birth.

Quick vignette. 

My mother lives on the edge of a predominantly rough area in her city, employment was low and the British born neighbours were the majority. Social issues with fighting, public drinking, drug abuse and petty feuds were rife. 

In the 20 years they've been there migration has radically changed the demographic, her neighbours now include Greeks, Albanians, Africans and lots of Eastern Europeans. They work. They strive and most of them move away after a couple of years to be replaced by a new set. 

Non and I mean zero of them, sit around drinking, shouting and screaming at each other. Most of them show respect to my elderly parents or they politely ignore them until my mum takes time to get to know them, when she shows decency to them they respond in a relieved manner that she isn't a racist piece of shit so they become friends. 

No more broken windows or twats driving round and round all night being antisocial. 

The new people are here to work, providing a better life for their children and themselves. 

Not all migrants are like that I know but a vast majority are and I personally am much happier knowing these people are my mums neighbours than the old defeated and hopeless f**kwits that used to be there. 

Now the social problems of the uks unemployed classes is a huge issue and one that's tricky to fix without investing in education and employment but that's nothing to do with migration and everything to do with inept political planning that has gotten so short termist as to not function. 

Without migration the UK would be a backwater of mediocrity. Migration brings revitalised drive, ambition and wealth. 

Hi old ID number.

• not a fan of Trump

• have close to no issues with deportations 

• not a fan of ice and/or how it is being operated 

As someone who’s pretty close to the “middle” politically and also thinks everyone societally in America is skewing harder right or left, I don’t know the main talking point for being pro open or no borders. The only real chatter I see with that is in hug box echo chambers from deeply online individuals and I haven’t spent any time having a conversation with someone who holds that stance, so it’d be unfair for me to try to explain it when I’m only seeing the (I think..?) loud minority. 

Why most people take issue with ICE is how, where, and who are being targeted. Once in custody (even if a citizen - very tiny percentage but does and has happened) the treatment and conditions are worse than an underfunded county or state jail (which is shit). 

Borders and immigration are complicated but being a proud American I’m super pro immigration.. it’s kind of always been our “thing”. If I were to start supporting ICE it’d have to become an agency that continues to detain and deport illegal immigrant inmates, audits and fines/jails corporations and decision makers in companies/industries that are hiring illegal immigrants, and works in tandem with the US getting more immigration civil/public servants (judges, clerks, etc.) because the processing times for coming in or staying legally is absurd. 

Well ICE is a contentious organisation. Some people say that ICE are 'roided up dipsh*ts, thugs who enjoy beating and killing people, savages, half-wits, child molestors and cretins.

But their critics have been less kind.

I wouldn't visit UK because brexit made it complicated, but I can take my ID and driving license and travel anywhere in EU because I'm an EU citizen. American politics never made sense to me, now the situation with Trump is even more confusing so I don't even bother trying to understand what's going on there.

If you believe this, then immigration should be legalized,  shouldn't it? But as it is, it is deemed illegal. If so, then acting against it seems logical.

Or am I missing something here?

Also: that you have the right to something does not automatically mean that someone else has to give it. I mean... Your right to have a home doesn't mean I have to give up my house. So that reasoning seems flawed.

Still not taking a position in the matter, mind you, hell, being non-US, I don't think I actually HAVE any ability to take a position. Just trying to follow the path where the reasoning takes me.

the first thing ICE agents need to do is take off the masks & then become accountable for their actions and start wearing body-cams.  

Double check, but I’m pretty sure as long as you’re visiting not staying it’s relatively painless to come into the UK from the EU. 

I travel to the EU for work all the time and the only real rule that affects me is that you can’t spend more than 6 months out of the year in the EU. I’m pretty sure that rule goes both ways. 

even now im still dumbfounded that people voted away our free travel around europe. i was looking forward to retiring somewhere warmer than scotland *smh

Same. Everytime I stand in that non eu queue at the airport I get pissed off all over again 

"Migration is as old as humanity itself. "

Welfare is not. No one would care for immigration if there wasn't socialized healthcare, socialized education, public pensions, benefits for all sorts of stuff.

What an idiotic comment.

Then why aren't people trying to migrate to South American, African & Middle Eastern countries?

Uhhhh. You may wanna do some research and then edit that comment 

Well you guys always say why arent people migrating to China, while China has a much more socialized system than the US.

That already makes the argument stupid 

I mean, granted, I see a lot of AMericans Eruopeans & Aussies making places like Portugal & certain SE Asian countries home, mainly because of the ideal weather, friendlier attitudes, somewhat safe living conditions (area depending) &  because it's damn near impossible to sustain a life here on a fixed income. But for the most part, the Western world is the countries where everyone is taking a big risk paying shady people to trek through a desert or trying to float across the ocean on a poorly made raft to get to. 

Edit. I'll be nice today. Load image: laughing

It is not unusual for law enforcement units to.hidevtheir identity. The special police units in the Netherlands do the same, it's to protect them and their families from certain individuals and organizations.

In principle, individuals are not accountable, their organization is (except for the Nuremberg exception, but that isn't the topic here).