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Ranked War Matching and Ranks

Started by TestPedroDev [3613560] Admin on in General Discussion.

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TestPedroDev [3613560] Admin Staff

Ranked Wars should be both fun and lucrative, rather than fun or lucrative. There is unlikely to be one single change that will achieve that, so we are looking at a whole range of tweaks. The first thing we are looking at in this programme of work is trying to improve matching and ranking.

 

We intend to change how matching and ranks work with the goal of ending up with a system where:

 

  • The vast majority (>90%) of a faction's matches are winnable matches against factions with a similar stat range
  • Factions should continue to get matched the vast majority of times they enlist
  • Rankings should reflect -- as far as possible -- who we think can beat who

 

We're posting this to get feedback from the wider community on this change, specifically. We will read and consider all feedback, I will try and respond to as much of it as I can and think is productive. We won't make everyone happy, sorry. We're not aiming for perfection, we're aiming to improve over the current system.

 

High-level plan

 

Currently, matches are chosen randomly for each faction from a pool of factions with a similar number of members, from ±1 division, not taking into account a faction’s stats strength. Factions are promoted or demoted by a division depending on if they win or lose a war (with a couple of special cases), and rankings inside of Diamond Rank are based on a system of positional swaps.

 

We will move instead to a system where every faction has a hidden numerical rating, where higher is better. Rating is based on multiplying a faction’s stat-score (using a very, very similar formula we use to calculate Hidden Rank number) with a performance variable based on their performance in wars. Performance will be adjusted over time using a system derived from ELO.

 

Rank and division will be determined solely by a faction’s rating relative to other factions, although we will keep the member-count requirement for Diamond.

 

For matching a faction, we’ll pick an opponent at random from their pool of similar-rated peers. There will be a hard cap on how mismatched a fight can be, but with enough natural variance that you won’t see the same handful of opponents on a fixed cycle.

 

The factions who are the largest in their player-size bracket tend to be much, much bigger than the factions below them. It is very hard to find fair matches for CR/NS/MHQ (>90 members), for Monarch Retardation and [Redacted] (~40 members), and impossible for Inglorious Basterds (~25 members). For these factions, we will aim for harm-reduction for their opponents by trying to fairly rotate the number of times they have to face them (getting "sacrificed"), keeping it at less than 10% of the time. As part of the algorithm for this, most factions will also occasionally be paired (ideally <10%) with significantly weaker factions (getting "coddled"). We will reach across at most 2 divisions (eg Plat III->Plat I) to achieve this.

 

Pictures

😎 Sunglasses on because I don't use dark-mode 😎

 

Below we have comparisons of the last 40 wars each faction was in, and what the next 40 would look like under the new system. Note that these are arranged by colour, not chronologically. The rating given is how it looks after the last 40 wars the faction was in. We use the historical enlistment rate to predict future enlistment rate.

 

Orange and yellow mean a match-up was "too easy" for a faction (coddled), pink and red mean it was "too hard" (sacrificed). Green means we think it's a reasonable match-up. White means the faction didn't enlist, and purple means that they enlisted, but we didn't find a match for them.

 

Here's the top 20 factions by rating, before = left, after = right

 

 

400 to 420:

 

 

Here are twenty weeks of matches for Just Fer Khaos (#11), historical on the left, simulated on the right:

(nb: this was mislabeled as being The Next Level on the original post. sorry)

 

 

For The Revenant (#263):

 

 

Shout-outs

 

Particular thanks to Kamikaze-Tool, Qfiffle, Omanpx, Helmstetter, and other players who've helped discuss this with me, including the many hundreds who responded to DMs about their RW experiences, esp the rest of the staff team.

 

Questions and answers

 

How does this handle terming / can this be gamed?

 

Even though we are pretty good at detecting termed wars, the algorithm will assume that all wars are real. Your rating is made up of your stat-score and your performance. You can't really game the stat-score component, because additions or subtractions from your roster should genuinely affect your fighting ability. You can to some degree game the performance side of it by terming, but your reward is that you get slightly harder or easier matches, and when you stop terming then that will drift back to its natural state. The ELO algorithm is self-healing: if you've termed your way to an unrealistically high performance, your performance score will see a relatively big adjustment when you lose to team your rating thought you should easily beat. It's worth mentioning as well that we cap the performance variable, so there's a limit to how high you can go if you don't have the underlying stats for it (and how low).

 

You know this won't fix terming, right?

 

This will not stop factions terming, but, we hope it will cause a moderate reduction in terming, as we will largely remove the ability for one side to dictate terms, and also strongly reduce the number of times factions are faced with an unbeatable opponent. It does nothing to address the cost of wars, which is an issue at the higher end, for example.

 

I still see some unfair matches you've marked as fair

 

Not every match-up will be easy. Some will be hard. They should all be plausible, but part of the algorithm learning is that you will occasionally get a very hard or very easy match-up that we thought at the time was fairly well matched. Factions change over time, and a factions performance variable will update to match it. For a faction that doesn't term, over time their win-rate should trend towards 50%.

 

How exactly will rank and division be determined?

 

Strictly by rating. Say we decided we want 100 Diamond factions across the four Diamond divisions (which is probably around where we'll end up) then the top 25-rated factions with (>=75 players) will be Diamond III, the next 25 Diamond II, etc

 

If you're using an ELO-like system, what are the coefficients you're using? How exactly does it work? etc

 

We don't want to remove the pleasure of reverse engineering the numbers from our more analytical players. Plus we are likely to be tweaking them over time.

 

Didn't it used to work like this before "Open Letter to Ched"

 

That system did indeed take into account stats for making matches, however, it caused stronger factions who had few peers to be starved for matches, and meant the ranking didn't reflect who could beat who. This new proposed system should fix both those issues.

 

Does this mean smaller-stat high-activity factions won't ever get matched against truly hard factions?

 

So the text does explicitly mention a "a limit to how high you can go", but in modelling the current limit doesn't get hit in practice. As an example of how that might work more concretely, a faction that's incredibly good at fighting and has players with an average of 1bn stats could theoretically get matched to a faction that's never won a war, and has 25bn average stats. Another way to see it: in theory, the system would permit a Monarch Leviathan who won all of their wars to match with an NSIII who lost all of their. In short: I don't think this will be a problem in practice, but it's a number that's very easily tweaked if we see factions who do manage to get their performance rating high enough.

 

When is this getting released?

 

I don't know. Implementation shouldn't be a huge piece of work now the majority of the simulation work has been done. It's both a high priority and has people actively working on it. This isn't a future project, this is an under active development project.

Mentions: Ranked Warring Request; Open Letter to Ched

pilvlp [2796461]

Whoa

 

It's nice to see ranked wars getting attention, and I hate to say this, but I don't think this actually solves the core issue. Ranked wars will still be gamed.

 

My suggestion is still some kind of tournament style system to at least make terms harder. Start small with 4 factions over 2 weekends, either back to back or every other week. Another option would be to break the war into smaller battles over the same duration as a normal 1v1 ranked war. The main idea is that now you force 4 factions to negotiate instead of 2. The more factions, opinions, incentives, and moving parts involved, the harder it becomes to game the outcome. Rankings and rewards should also be based on multiple factors, not just winning or losing. Things like score production, activity, participation, comeback effort, and performance after being eliminated should matter.

 

I would highly suggest looking at professional sports for guidance. Take the NBA for example. Teams have tanked for years because losing can improve their draft position. There is a direct incentive to lose. A lot of sports deal with this and constantly try to find ways to reduce the reward for tanking. The PWHL saw this an implemented their own fix. After a team was eliminated from playoff contention, they could still earn draft order points by continuing to win so instead of being rewarded for giving up, they were rewarded for continuing to compete and that same idea could apply here.

 

Have 4 factions battle it out. Once a faction is out of contention for first place, they should still have a reason to keep fighting. They should be able to fight their way up for better rank and better rewards. Rewards could be split based on overall performance, wins, participation, score production, and how much a faction continues to compete after being eliminated from winning contention. More factions would obviously make the system more intricate, but that is also the point. It becomes much harder to term, and much harder for everyone to agree on a clean negotiated outcome.

Broxogar [2728258]

Yes please.  Anything to stop factions with ridiculously high stats hitting a practical 'floor' which allows them to constantly dictate terms and rake in caches.

 

If you're the worst coordinated, most inactive group of 20b stat players you shouldn't be permanently sitting in Diamond raking in rewards every week.

-Thor- [165392]

When is this getting released?

 

I don't know. Implementation shouldn't be a huge piece of work now the majority of the simulation work has been done. It's both a high priority and has people actively working on it. This isn't a future project, this is an under active development project.

 

 

So in 2050, well done maggot

Abetting [2016807]

It's there a chance in hell we simply move RW caches from being RW rewards to being OC rewards? 

 

This would eliminate the monetary value of RWs and terming would immediately cease to exist as there would be no point in doing so anymore. 

 

Rank being tied into territories would make RW still relevant.

Viciously_Grim [2752611]

How to make wars both fun/competetive and lucrative already exists.

 

I do have some question though:

 

  1. Will this prevent rank lock if someone leaves a faction or someone buys a faction and repopulates the shell with new members with lower stats?
  2. Did you get any input at all from lower metals?
  3. Will this only affect the upper ranks? If not show me some images of lower ranks bc those are the vast majority of factions.

 

There are:

95 diamond factions

299 platinum

327 gold

402 silver

1296 bronze

 

How exactly will rank and division be determined?

 

Strictly by rating. Say we decided we want 100 Diamond factions across the four Diamond divisions (which is probably around where we'll end up) then the top 25-rated factions with (>=75 players) will be Diamond III, the next 25 Diamond II, etc

 

All of these proposed changes appear to be mainly focused on Diamond. All of the listed interviewees were in Diamond factions. Diamond is hardly representative of Torn at large. Diamond runs by its own rules, abides by those rules, and then whines in the forums about their experience abiding by those rules.

 

That system did indeed take into account stats for making matches, however, it caused stronger factions who had few peers to be starved for matches, and meant the ranking didn't reflect who could beat who. 

 

This is literally their own fault for hoarding stats in a select few shells. Why is this the rest of our problem?

 

Perhaps add a Legendary rank for the factions hoarding over-statted mini bosses and if there's no matchup available for them, pit 2 factions against them from the pool of available opponents who would otherwise not have a reasonable chance to win independently.

 

If you're only getting input from people in the top 95 factions, your changes are going to suck yet again.

 

Edit: loving all the diamond down votes. You're just telling on yourselves at this point.

 

Edit 2: Just realized this will likely completely overturn current ranks and force certain plat factions into Bronze, and keep them there. This is insane. Will we be forced back into Silver and just be stuck there until we get some more heavies? 😑😑😑

 

  • Rankings should reflect -- as far as possible -- who we think can beat who

 

It's worth mentioning as well that we cap the performance variable, so there's a limit to how high you can go if you don't have the underlying stats for it (and how low).

 

Ranks should be earned, not just handed out like candy or used like rope to imprison factions based on their stats.

 

This will not stop factions terming, but, we hope it will cause a moderate reduction in terming, as we will largely remove the ability for one side to dictate terms

 

Stats do NOT control who controls the terms of a termed war. Your own images show the main issue which is the CODDLING of the highest ranks, just because they have big stats and old accounts. All of this is just about the highest ranked factions, who coddle themselves with termed wars and then complain about it.

 

Fair fight scouter premium now shows player activity for the top 1000 factions. Fights that on paper look unwinnable are in practice easily winnable because everyone is so damn coddled they don't even know what the "real war" they're asking for even is.

 

With this matching system, the system would consider our past 3 wars anomalies which we shouldn't have won, and possibly not even permitted the matchup. That is hardly fair.

 

This matchmaking system would be a good idea only if it were limited to matchmaking (NOT actual rank) for platinum 3 and diamond matchmaking, and to get factions out of rank lock after a roster change. Oh and brand new factions or a total roster change (even without rank lock, for example a complete roster change from no statters to heavies, which would in the current system not cause rank lock but lead to unfair matches for the next few wars while ranking up).

 

-----

 

Pedro gave a better explanation on page 23.

 

The basic premise is factions will initially be assigned a rating based on battle stats plus performance (recent win/loss ratio, or ELO score). To start, Torn will assign matchups based on who the algorithm thinks can have a reasonable matchup.

 

Ratings will be adjusted over time. If a faction consistently wins, their rating will jump quickly, and if factions lose consistently, their rating will drop quickly. The matching algorithm will be adjusted with actual data as it comes in and much harder/easier matchups will be tested on outlier factions until their rating matches their abilities.

 

Once factions have been assigned a rating, then Torn will assign Divisions (ranks) based on how many factions they want in each rank (Diamond will still have a member min to start).

 

So dropping rank on purpose to get easier matches will only work so long before rewards are affected and some wins become necessary to balance your ELO. This change will therefore not affect cache farms that win and lose to maintain their desired rank below their ability rank - they will be able to maintain their ideal rating. But over time that rating may decay into a lower division as other factions choose to rate up to their actual rating.

 

I'm starting to look forward to this change, as it wouldn't be as harmful to rewards to lose a match - losing will be part of maintaining rating. (As it is now anyway) The difference is that matchup will be based on rating, not division (as it is now), and division will be assigned based on rating (which is opposite of the current system where rank determines who can be matched for war).

 

So factions with heavies there for show will be able to maintain their rating with their warring members, and their heavies won't contribute as much to their rating as they do now. This is good news, as those factions will get better matchups for their actual warring roster, instead of matchups based on their full roster.

 

On the other end of extremes, low stat rat terrier factions will be able to rate up just like now, and just be given harder and harder matchups until their actual rating is found by the system.

 

For the highest rating factions, I'm not sure how exactly this change will affect them. They may just be part of the 10% who can't be matched for 50% win rate. And that's okay. There should always be room for outliers. No system is perfect.

 

What this means for my faction is our heavies would be able to rely on our smaller stat night shift more and possibly get a better night's sleep ourselves, as our faction will be rated by our faction's abilities as a whole, not just by heavy hitters. And so will our opponents.

Mentions: [Boilerplate] Standard war terms template · Ranked War Matching and Ranks

BiiGz [2733267]

What would incentivise war if caches are gone? it would require a new reward for people to even bother fighting for real 

TestPedroDev [3613560] Admin Staff

Certainly open to chatting about it (feel free to send me a message, although it's Friday evening here), but at first glance I don't think it's the right solution. There are going to need to be a range of tweaks needed, I just don't think that's the right one.

BurstBoy [3173749]

Activity is everything, the side with clearly less activity and median stats can get a small well measured stat boost buff when they attack (eg they still have to show up)

TestPedroDev [3613560] Admin Staff

Bringing score races in to the mix is definitely an idea I'm fond of. In answer to the other questions:

 

  1. Re-read the section "How does this handle terming / can this be gamed?", which I think answers most of what would happen there. If it's not clear, I'll take another stab at explaining it.
  2. Some. I sent a large number of outbound messages to faction leaders asking about specific wars, albeit most were in Platinum and not Gold or Silver. Often I was asking about specific wars they had that I was curious about, but this often turned into wider discussion of the warring system
  3. It'll affect everyone a bit, but I think the effects will be less felt in lower ranks.

 

Here is a picture. Apologies if some of the factions are now defunct or have changed their names, the corpus is a few weeks old:

 

Hawk [2080065]

I definitely like the idea of matching against someone where there's always a "fighting chance"

...and where they have a fighting chance against me.

 

That does kind of change the definition of the tiers though. 

 

 

 

For example:

How will a very strong faction that is new get matched with anyone in the bottom tier where there aren't any strong factions?

 

...and if that changes the definition of the tiers, will it affect rewards?

 

 

 

Let there be [more] war