Banning of third party casinos

This is actually a very fair point. Do forum raffles use a Torn built tool to verify the results of the draw? 
if not then under the discussed rule change they shouldnt be allowed as theres no way to prove the legitimacy of the results.

So to paraphrase WaywardSquid... 

Forum based raffles only require the raffle host to use an external site or tool of their choosing.

Off-site raffles require every participant to leave Torn to use the raffle platform, potentially exposing users to malicious or explicit content. 

To paraphrase bogie:

Torn doesn't have the resources to vet every Discord server and website that has popped up extremely rapidly recently due to AI assisted coding for good off-site gambling versus malicious off-site gambling. So it's all gonna be banned. 

You havent answered these three. Ive read through your responses. Would you be so kind?

1. “Paying out winnings from these services can itself be treated as promotion.”
   1. Can you please explain how service payouts = promotion? A payout requires an existing participant. Existing participant knows about the service. You cant promote the service to someone that knows about the service.
2. Have you considered (you started the thread by stating "we discussed" but have later pivoted to "you are banning these services") regulating instead of restricting?
   1. If someone wants to operate a "games of chance" site they would need to adhere to rules set by Torn. Stuff like exclusion options, play limits, verifiable odds (via commitment systems for example) etc
   2. Not much extra policing on Torn's side really necessary. The community, especially competitors, would weed out the non-adhering sites real fast and report their operators.  
3. Why not letting them operate, as long as they dont advertise? (Meaning not including the payouts=promotion absurdity). You are confident that 99% of them would die if not allowed that so why not just let them do that?

exactly my point. if forum and newsie raffles are allowed then so should the raffles on discord. torn doesnt have a tool to draw winners of raffles. the draw would happen offsite and the answer would be just trust me, at least on discord those who buy in can see the IMMEDIATE result of the drawing when i put a command in to do /draw. this decision makes zero sense

Torn has always been a place where if someone gets scammed its the scammed fault. Torn has very much been self regulating by the community. In my opinion i dont really think staff cares about the casinos as a whole but are probably doing this for more of a legal protection on their side. I dont know UK laws but i wouldnt be shocked. 

I'm all for these bans of the third party gambling sites. It seems more pop up every other day, like you say too there is no way these people throwing them together with Claude etc have the knowledge to secure these sites correctly.

What would we be looking at in terms of upholding the rules of advertising these sites? Would these be temporary bans, permanent bans for advertising? Also if these sites continued to exist would there be a follow up where the site owners / helpers are chased or banned for continuing to run these sites with no direct advertising?

once again bogie is allergic to doing any actual work on "security" or whatever the fuck his title is

just ban everyone OP, free yourself from the pain

I refer back to this post - https://www.torn.com/forums.php#/p=threads&f=2&t=16604899&b=0&a=0&start=400&to=27932897 - at what point does it become illegal? 

"Similarly - if I were to host a raffle in the forums, but record the entries via a discord bot (perfectly legal for other things elsewhere), and use the bot for the draw itself, would that be legal as the raffle was technically hosted on the forum? 

Not trying to be 'that guy', but if I decide to continue with raffles I'd still prefer to automate what I can, instead of having to go through potentially hundreds or thousands of log s!"

So if you were to run a 3rd party website, which includes the option for people to pay 1x Xanax to spin a wheel, and they might win a prize which is Torn items, would that be okay? 

I'm still confused 

Those that saying it's not torn related it is. If it's a website, that you sign in with your public API, linked to your account, you are sending a Xanax that is torn related, and receiving xanx back, when did it stop being torn related. 

Torn staff and rules are a government, and the players are the people.

If your blindly saying to ban them, tomorrow it could be you who is getting banned if we don't look at why or what the rule changes l.

So look at real world first. Why is unregulated gambling illegal? Is it because it's unsafe? 

No it's because it can't be taxed, and the government hurts their pocket, it opens up money laundring ect. Why money laundring illegal? Because it's evading taxes. Notice the pattern here? 

So let's look into the reason into possible ban. I believe that it all comes down to money. So Is it necessary to ban 3rd party casinos to keep more money coming into the game? No unless it's literally RMT where it's real money for torn Xanax. 

Keeping a gold sink like casinos means more people buying dps, and trust me if someone a gambler, they will find a way to gamble. So keep it on site or off site. I know id rather have it in site. Even if it's 3rd party it's still torn money.

These are not your Roblox kids buying opening cache, most torn is adults, and if so simulated gambling is the issue?? Remove torn casino, if kids are on the app then get rid of it all. Do not soft ban 3rd party. Gamblers know the risk and are willing to risk it. I think it's up to us the people to decide. Its not a torn issue to deal with. 

Access time for what and for where? Def not access time for torn 

I have a lot more catching up to do in this thread, but as a player who started this year, the years of tribal knowledge that have amassed from this approach are unsustainable (and IMO, already out of hand). It feels as though we have to become rules lawyers and study the case law to not accidentally misstep.

It would be really helpful to have a long-form collection of decisions and discussions like this one, parallel to the shorter rules page you prefer to maintain.

Maybe this would be better off as a community-run project, but that comes with the downsides of lack of authority and losing your intent in translation. Curious if you have any thoughts on it first.

I'm not saying it's suspect that this topic comes up not even a week after a member of SHAT opens a casino

but I'm not not saying that it sure is some funky-ass coincidence! the last big rule change also fucked SHAT over and quicklike too! I wonder if perhaps bogie has a vendetta against a particular faction?

Yes bogie already stated that the host can do whatever they want with the entries including keep them. The issue is the part where other people are enticed to leave the site to go to a gambling site. 

Raffle hosts can use whatever tools they want to decide the winners. Bots, scripts, spreadsheets, dice, etc as long as it's their choice to go and no one else is forced to go off site to join the paid raffle/lottery. 

Off site giveaways are fine as they're not something the participants pay into. 

All of this is newly relevant bc of some new EU law bogie referenced in another thread. 

It stemmed from this thread. https://www.torn.com/forums.php#/p=threads&f=17&t=16603937&to=27915810

bogie farming karma

All these 3rd party gamba websites are cringe and lame
BUT
An elims prediction market or something where you bet on elim team success would be cool, because then you can have a larger financial stake in your team succeeding 

If there's a way to do that in a compliant manner somebody should make it

As an absolute no one my understand is anything not done in torn that you have to "buy in" (send xanax) to maybe win something is gonna be against the rules. But I may be wrong all this is way above my head