Websocket / Scripting Discussion Thread

In order to facilitate productive discussion regarding web sockets / scripting issues and to reduce the amount of off-topic discussion within the fedded archives I have created this thread. 

Please respect other people’s views and let’s have constructive conversations. 

Hopefully, staff will allow us to keep this thread for the topic with the intention of clearing up other threads. 

in b4 graved for no discussion 

This thread can continue for discussions on various web sockets / scripting issues.

Future list postings from my API process will go to a new thread.

Google Sheets link

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1rVH7hLRModRqZnyJVko-XjDdWdfqfFaZODwbZ3218s/edit?usp=sharing

Mug bots can still run locally by manually tabbing across different item market tabs and checking what's changed since last check. Prove me wrong.

Delay all the api by 30 minutes .

then anyone who is too good all the time without much exception is clearly doing something nefarious and cheating the system the game and the fellow players, right?

unfortunately, I think we’ve reached the place where those ruining the game and ‘competitivenss’ for others with their advantages, are going to cause the devs to have to make changes that end up disabling the useful and helpful stuff.  One of those situations where the people doing bad things with the tools available and have their fun end up ruining it for everyone else. 

Is it competitive or is it an unfair advantage….

So far, it’s been allowable unfair advantage…. And again that’s why it’s most likely going to cause the devs to make changes that negatively impact the “good” stuff. 

https://www.torn.com/forums.php#/p=threads&f=2&t=16531284&b=0&a=0&start=60&to=26904629

Please look here if anyone wants a recap in the history of the websocket bot drama and subsequent staff's responses, going to update the most recent ones later.

I think what would be beneficial is clear feedback from the community regarding what they would like to see and what capabilities should be authorised via APi usage. 

I think the 30 minute delay would mitigate most mugbots viability. Ive never use4d, but been a victim of, thankfully it was a sale mug between me and a notorious mugger and the muggers butt buddy, they ended up with $0 after i made a purchase, because i took exact amount*

My opinion is scripting in general is fine - Things like TornTools, etc.

But on the discussion of scripting with websockets and page scraping? If you do it for yourself, such as scraping your inventory for what ever reason, your company for stats and recording purposes and so on, then go for it.

But these mug bots and scripts have ruined the mugging scene. At one point it took some sort of skill to mug people, but those bots made it pointless in even trying because before you could even click the attack button, they were mugged already.

Using scripts and the API can give you an advantage over regular players already in some circumstances, but to remove all skill needed to snipe good purchases, or mug people, or this, that and the other just makes me wonder why people even play the game at that point?

I guess I'm repeating what everyone has already said before, but oh well.

I think an interesting thing for the API would be to just open it up to the Market, Auction House (doesn't have end times that I can see?) and Bazaars properly, but those who list anonymously are hidden from the API. People can have their bots if they so wish, and people can hide from them if they so wish.

Is it fair? I'd say no, but regardless people are going to find a way around it eventually like everything else.

Bazaar api:

1. Bazaar api needs to updated long before a bad blood bag ends
2. Bazaar api needs to be updated close to when an idle status changes so that people watching your idle status don't get an unfair advantage on when your bazaar opens (read: you would still need to self hosp without api updates for your "fans", and your fans would have an unfair advantage to buy vs the general public)
3. You don't need API to watch idle status change, just a chat window
4. So bazaar api needs to be updated within a few seconds, the current global cache is completely fit for purpose

Example no-API mug list checking

This method gives an unfair advantage to muggers watching specific bazaar sellers, when the public might not be aware these bazaars are even open unless they have API calls available showing the bazaars are open. So not only do people watching specific bazaars get first dibs to buy, they also get first dibs to mug.

Without API these sellers may be tempted to not self hosp immediately. That would be a mistake. But each self hosp with too long of a delay to the API update would also be a waste of blood bag time.

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Can just manually check idle people's mini profiles to see if their bazaar is open:

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If they're online when you check your possible mug list, you can open a chat with them and watch for idle status change and then check their mini profile right on the chat window!

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If you know when someone might come online, you can keep their chat bubble open to watch for online status to change to green to see when they might open their bazaar, and then just check mini profile again to see when their bazaar is open (all without API):

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User status API (hospital, flight, idle status):

1. Online status, hospital timers, and flight status are significant for war
2. Online status can be monitored via chat bubbles as above, with hospital status visible either through mini profile if they've sent you a message before, or via click to their profile
3. Hospital status can be checked on their profile or compulsively refreshing their attack loader to see if their health starts to increase rapidly (sign of using med items to unhosp) or to see if they unhosp entirely
4. Adding any delay to these updates risks server issues as people stop relying on API based scripts and go back to compulsively refreshing profile pages to get user status, and also loading mini profiles over and over to get hospital timers
5. Compulsive refreshing and mini profile opening are more server intensive than api calls
6. Compulsive refreshing risks CAPTCHA hell
7. Having these api calls be instant while putting more than a couple seconds to bazaar calls would give a significant advantage to people not watching the api
8. Stakeouts already have a delay of 15 seconds or so depending on how often the stakeouts check the API
9. Bazaar seller's online and hospital status are usually are being watched by stakeouts, not war monitors that display updates closer to 4 second delay vs 15 seconds

Quit f**king bitching about getting mugged when you can't self hosp. Seriously. It's super f**king annoying. We get it, you think you're untouchable. News flash: you're not. People can mug you. Deal with it.

Example war script:

For the record this is the war script I use Torn War Stuff Enhanced. It sorts opposition by Play status, then Hospital time (under 5 minutes is highlighted), and then flight status with target shown:

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Glad someone started this thread. I was forum banned for the seven days everyone was talking about it the first time. *sarcasm*

People who use scripts or TornTools don't know what RPG means. They are number optimizers, and frankly it's lame. The sort of people who wear the strongest gear regardless if it all matches or makes sense, just as long as each skill is fully optimized. Winning at having big numbers isn't role playing. Every game is just Monopoly with that thinking. 

In my opinion:

If it is affecting your account only (aka Quality of Life) is good

If it is affecting a third party account (mugbots, aim assists in shooting games, etc) is bad

Another websocket thread? Ugghhh

WebSocket for mugging players is bad . web sockets that effect torn quality should be banned that is my opinion. traditional mugging is the best for torn players

Torn is such a weird f**king game.

The API is so expansive that programmers are essentially MVPs by design. Mug bots, stock bots, everything bots, that's the game.

Almost every competitive player who can also program ends up in an HOF faction to do competitive scripting (or be in the presence of someone who can).

This broadens the gap between us non-HOF footfolk and the larger cartels. And it's a profoundly un-fun experience to be part of the rabble and get f**ked up the ass for selling something on the item market.

[edited to clarify the above - there is zero counterplay, except for learning ALL nooks and crannies of the game's mechanics and hoping you didn't misunderstand or forget about any interactions - e.g. revives on/off, bazaar open/closed, can't dump money to faction from hosp, etc. etc. creating a massive workload for anyone just making a sale - while the mugger experience is "Bot: @mugger THIS NERD HAS CASH, LOL" and <10 clicks. Brainless content. Certainly game design outcomes that I would try to alter.]

Delaying the API significantly, as Hopslam suggested, would help in the broader sense.

Websocket shit, the current rule applications sound like an improvement from what was happening befote.

It says websockets but the current argument in Fedded Archives is to add a global 30 minute cache to all API calls. This thread is an attempt to move the discussion off Fedded Archives.

Bullying of Splent starts here;

https://www.torn.com/forums.php#/p=threads&f=2&t=16129703&b=0&a=0&start=32620&to=26953171

If a player doesnt see someone selling their items, they shouldnt have any way of knowing a sale happened. Thats just cheating. Allowing scripts like this to exist opens pandoras box for even more abusive scripts in the future.

one websocket thread a day keeps the cheaters away

the web socks must stay on during mugs