Recent events raised a debate about whether or not the player base should be punished for using an exploit in game to cheat and get advantages in it. The discussion turned to whether or not the player base was actively cheating or if they were merely using game systems in an optimized manner. Cheating and exploiting can be confusing and that's what we should discuss about to get understanding in it.
tl;dr
When it comes to designating something as a cheat or an exploit, one should be able to differentiate. For me, cheating is similar to hacking and I use the following definition:
Cheating -- When a player goes outside playing the game to alter, modify or change the experience of the game from the developer's original intent.
When it comes to altering the game through the use of mods, I know that there is a major grey area here when it comes to aesthetic or UI mods. Aesthetic is when the player may alter the display of pages, eliminating unwanted players from list etc and may only be visible to the player using it. For these mods, I wouldn't consider them cheating as they don't impact playing the game.
UI however is when we run into another debate. If someone uses a UI mod that gives them an advantage compared to people using the default UI that could be considered cheating. The question comes in when players argue that an enhanced UI makes the experience more enjoyable for them and isn't changing the gameplay, but making it better for them. (spamming servers with requests causing servers to break, etc)
Exploit: The player uses mechanics put in by the developer to circumvent the gameplay.
When it comes to exploits, there are two categories of usage to go over with the first being "breaking the game." Breaking the game refers to using the mechanics in such a way that you find a strategy that completely dominates anything the game developer has put in.
We can see this in strategy titles where there is a dominant tactic that wins every time or games where one player or group of players are having advantages over exploits/ leaking information in game. In these situations the exploiting is due to the developer not figuring out all the possible consequences of their design and the players using that to their advantage. For single player games, these kinds of exploits are up to the designer's discretion when it comes to fixing them. But, for community involved games, exploits will bring more devastating outcomes to the game and majority of players.
The second type of exploit is when the players discover a bug in the game's programming that can be used to get around content.
One of examples is when one particular mission is giving continuous mission credits over and over again even after the mission is completed and a player decided to spam that completed mission repeatedly.
*not happening to me, just an example of 2nd type of exploit.
As you can see, these are examples of players getting around the developer's intent much like with cheating. However in these situations the players are simply using mechanics and content provided by the game developer and don't have to go outside of the experience of playing the game.
Because exploiting is within the game, it raises the debate as to what the developer should do about it. Again, the player is technically not doing anything wrong or modifying the game in any way to give them an unfair advantage. But in the same breath the developers have left their code or design in such a way that makes it possible to get around their game.
But it is illegal in Torn. So it is considered cheating as rules are broken by exploiting the bugs.
Conclusion
In the end it's up to the game developers themselves to decide when it comes to their community messing with the game. Sometimes like with the self busting/old stock markets examples, it can lead to the developer making changes that benefit everyone while the WSSBgate example showcases the damage of not counting the possibility of exploits came from leaked info (either it really happened or not) and inability to react quickly enough.
One thing is for sure, staying quiet on these matters is never a good sign and as the creators of the game and the game developer, one must render a verdict on these matters. While you will piss off some of your community, you are still responsible for your content as one bad response can come back to haunt you if there are future situations to deal with.
Ty.
For that matter we need staff/ committee members who can make universal decisions , as of now I feel some are given badges for their own benefit and they know it .
Its all bad, the perpetrators know its bad and I'm sick of people with bad intentions hiding behind the defense 'it was a grey area'. Rather than exploiting grey areas because the rules don't explicitly tell you you're being a dick, use common sense, your morality, or if its really that grey, ask an admin before you go down the rabbit hole. Whether its cheating or 'exploiting' or 'exploiting but like kinda in a way that might be ok coz like the rules, and ched said x once, and scripts..." is all bad and should all be punished
Exploiting a bug like in your second example is, in my opinion, cheating. It should be fully punishable. If you find a way that you're making gains in a way that you shouldn't be and you don't report it, you're cheating.
Exploiting insider knowledge is what the most recent drama has all been about, which is something you haven't mentioned. Someone in a position of trust, privy to information unobtainable to the public puts themselves (or their friends) in a position where they directly gain from said information. This isn't exploiting any game mechanic or bug, it's exploiting knowledge entrusted to them.
It's happened quite a few times in the past that no one has really complained about. It could be in the form of spamming the 'glass door' to get a sneaky merit before the medical update that you know is around the corner. Or, in this case, about a stock update.
The reason there was so much drama around this WSSB one is because there seems not to be too much concrete evidence to it. Putting aside whether inside information was traded or not, it's undeniable at this point that innocent people were affected and lost out just because they were in the wrong place at the wrong time. Obviously the most vocal in these forums love the outcome. It's great fun to watch your rivals suffer. People with a more reasonable outlook probably feel a bit uneasy about it all.
Some exploits were coded into the game at a VERY early stage, and kind of overlooked by ched until things got seriously out of hand (Ahem self busting dex exponential gains) so things that were / are intentional can never be punished like that... However, people exploiting bugs should be punished severely.
Cheating on the other hand.. just depends what staff / committee friends you have, or which faction you're in, its fine then.
At the end of the day it doesn't matter what crime you commit, your punishment/freedom all depends on which side cries the loudest
Yeah, i didn't wrote it, but i agree with you. Exploiting insider knowledge is a bad thing, and should be as same as exploiting bugs, as people that have access to insider knowledge will have possibility of exploiting the knowledge for their own advantages.
Like Cold War, which side have more nuclear arsenals.
I went camping in the desert over New Years. We stopped at Flying J for gas and to get something to eat. Lorin ended up helping some guy who had wrecked his bumper and had pieces of fender rubbing against his wheel... It took a long time and so I was hanging out in the shopping area... when he finally came in we ordered a pizza and the lady told us it would be 10 minutes.. it took 20.. She was stressed and told us to get a free drink... I had already bought a coffee so I just got a refill and Lorin and his Brother declined... So when the pizza finally showed. I went u with our other purchase and she rang us up. As I walked out I realized she did not charge me for the pizza! I asked Lorin if he thought she did that on purpose and he said I should double check... The Clerk was surprised and relieved that I came back to pay for it.
I could have assumed it was her intent and not gone back in... but my inner voice that tells me when something doesn't seem right told me to question it. We all are equipped with this inner voice... some of us just have a difficult time hearing it, or have gotten good at ignoring it.
Do the right thing. Cheating out right or exploiting something you KNOW is outside of the intent is the same thing... wrong. Some people like to justify it and belittle those of us who actually live by a code. "It's just a lame game! It's not like it's real life." to them I say... if it's just a game, why compromise your integrity and honor for the very least of reasons? And if you will for something as silly as a game, you will in any aspect of your life. And yeah... all of us who actually make the right choices and are trustworthy... might not enjoy giant riches and the luxuries that come with... but we will enjoy knowing we are trustworthy and honorable.
All that effort just for another #FedNash thread...
hmmm... you are the one introducing #FedNash to the conversation. perhaps if you want to debate that issue, you should go to a thread where that theme is already introduced? I believe this one is debating the nuances between outright cheating and exploitation.
Perhaps the recently evolved torn city pop-culture references to #FedNash and #FreeMK might have escaped you somewhat?
If you want to talk about the OP then it is basically a C+P level fluff piece that makes a number of Captain Obvious statements, leaves the ball in the dev's court to "do better" and will just end up devolving into a #FedNash or #FreeMK style teledrama.
p.s. You're on the #FedNash side of the fence based on what you posted above btw.
both are the same to me you use are grey area in the game to get ahead or you just plain cheat both have the same reward at the end both should be viewed as same
The gray area will always be there, unless the game is simplified so much that it will become boring and unplayable. In the WSSB case Ched used a blunt instrument to clean up a mess with, and it was, well messy.
If the game mechanics allow you to benefit yourself in a way that benefits no other and you willingly abuse that mechanic then damn right you should be treated no differently than a full blown cheater as it is obvious it was not intended to be that way. The problem is when people get caught they put the blame elsewhere, but it doesn't work like that.. you are responsible for what you do.
No grey area in my eyes. Cheating and Exploiting are no different. This is a game and like all games, bugs will always occur. Honest, decent players will report the bug if found and have devs fix it for the fairness and integrity of the game. Those that choose to exploit it for personal gain are no different from those who choose to cheat in any other manner.
My response to this?
#FedNash
The rules say that if you spot a bug/exploit that you are supposed to report it to staff so they can fix it. A friend found an exploit where she got 2 ugly energy books as a city find. She reported it and got 1 book stripped but still didn't risk her account.
By not choosing to report these exploits they find, Nash (and others to a lesser degree) open themselves up to reprisals from admins. People who just report these exploits and let admins decide what to do won't ever get themselves in trouble, unless Ched decides to do another sweeping punishment like this wssb idiocy.
These exploits are still being found every once in a while.
It isn't blatant shit like self-busting but hidden mechanics that Ched will change without announcing when he catches wind of them.
Already forgot about Nash, maybe it is somehow related, but not neccesarily about Nash.