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IYO: Macana/DBKs v/s Arma

Started by Abdullah [2063435] on in Questions & Answers.

29 replies · 1.97k views · thread synced · 11 days ago · View on torn.com
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Abdullah [2063435]
So macanas are supposed to have higher acc and lesser dmg
While DBKs with more dmg and lesser acc
So with the accuracy nerf like about a year back, is it safe to say DBKs have an edge now? Since accuracy isnt as helpful?

Secondly, assume u pick the best amongst these 2 and I get the answer could be subjective and I'm just generalizing.

But if u compare the winner amongst those 2 with an arma, (considering it allows crit and other good mods). Is Arma still the clear winner keeping in mind u only get a few good shots be4 u must waste a hit reloading or have to switch to melee

I'm primarily asking this because now that I can buy ammo again is it worth a reset to switch all mastery merits to Rifles or nah?

Primarily: all 10/10 mastery melee hits since u dont have to reload
Or
Few 10/10 modded arms shots + a few 0/10 melee?

Also suppose you have higher strength than speed, would you want to build on it by using a higher dmg weapon or would u want to compensate your lower speed by getting more acc? I again get that the correct answer would vary depending on your opponent so basically I'm just looking for a well thought out opinion
Vulture [2169837]
I think it's absolutely worth it due to the mission mods for the arma giving it such an advantage.

However, I firmly believe a macana is a better weapon (than a DBK) as long as your strength is enough to peck down someone's health. Just my opinion though. Under the assumption you can survive a drawn out fight. Missing always does 0 damage. :D
Proxima [1879587] Wiki Editor
If you're reading this after 19/10/21 I'm afraid damage has changed now, which significantly alters this evaluation. I will update my guide(s) soon.

Ahh any chance to get on my goddamn soapbox..buckle up for what I'm scared is a tragically long post..I'll colour code my tl;dr points..

You have to consider how you want to actually compare weapons. I.e. what does "damage" actually do? what does "accuracy" actually do? And how much difference does a point in each actually have? They are not equal effects, so simply adding the numbers together is, while popular, a very poor choice.

Damage, in a roundabout way, reflects the damage multiplier your weapon imparts during a fight. That is, if based on your effective STR you would do X damage (with fists, forgetting the fist education >.>), with a weapon you would do X * multiplier damage. It is possible to work backwards from the displayed "damage" stat to retrieve this damage multiplier, and this is the first component I would incorporate into any comparison mechanism. You can read about all the damage shit here.

Accuracy reflects your hit chance against an opponent who's DEX is equal to your SPD. That is, a weapon with 60.00 accuracy would allow 1b SPD to hit 1b DEX 60% of the time. For unequal stats it's a bit more complicated. And while Accuracy isn't so straight forward for unequal stat ratios, when you're comparing weapons I believe the best way to do so is to compare them in a vacuum - i.e. there should be no extraneous advantages or disadvantages for the user comparing them - so 1:1 ratios work perfectly, and thus Accuracy is a simple second component to incorporate.

I do it like this for my sheet. It's called ProxiQuality because I had named it Quality and then Ched implemented "Quality"...>.> :

PQ = damage multiplier * accuracy / 100 * 10

I take the accuracy as a percentage and multiply it by the damage multiplier. I also multiply by 10 just to give a nicer number between 1-100, just a personal choice.

What is effectively calculated is the (normalised) average damage dealt to an opponent who's DEX matches your SPD. In fact all stats can be considered the same, although for this simple calc only the SPD:DEX matters.

By normalised I mean that of course this will not spit out the exact damage you will deal, but it will instead provide a PQ value that allows any weapon in the game to be compared with one another. The ratio of any two PQ scores will give you the ratio of your average damage output with each weapon, again with the above assumptions.


So that brings me on to Macanas, DBKs and ArmaLites. All of these weapons have PQ ranges with significant overlap - i.e. they're all really good and while some Macanas are better than some DBKs and Armas, the opposite will often be true.

Macana vs. DBK

The macana PQ range is slightly better than that of the DBK. The best theoretical macana is better than the best theoretical DBK. But here's the other thing..

Damage is uncapped. That is - get more strength, deal more damage. Get a higher damage multiplier weapon, deal more damage. This will always be true no matter what stats you have.

Hit chance is capped, at 100%. That is - getting more speed doesn't always mean hit more, getting a higher accuracy weapon doesn't always mean hit more. And even when it does, the other thing about Accuracy is that it's at it's peak effectiveness when your SPD exactly matches an opponents DEX. As your SPD increases over your opponents DEX, or vice versa, the extra hit chance % your weapon provides decreases.

While 1:1 SPD:DEX may be the fairest way to consistently assess all weapons in the game, it's also rarely the case in practicality and some caveats should be considered when choosing what do fight with.

My advice is:

- If you are a SPD monster and hit basically every time no matter who you're fighting, just max up the highest possible damage weapon you can afford. Forget the macana, forget the f**kin DBK, go to town with a goddamn flail.

- If you're comparing to weapons that theoretically perform similarly to one another (e.g. PQ scores), pick the one with the highest damage. This will guarantee you a better output when fighting opponents of various different builds (particularly concerning their DEX compared with your SPD). In essence what I'm saying here is, DBK is your man really.

- If you're severely lacking in hitting an opponent, I'd personally look at temporary weapons NOT higher accuracy weapons. None of this is to say Accuracy isn't good, or valuable, or even worth paying for in some cases. But I do think it's overvalued and there are better options in many fights.


Macana/DBK vs ArmaLite

This comparison isn't really even close. Reloads set the ArmaLite back a bit (assuming you do actually take turns to reload and continue using th weapon), but special ammo (in particular Incendiary) blows any melee to smithereens. Special ammo doesn't need some fancy ass logarithm calculation, it just whacks on a percentage to your damage output at the end - which in terms of any theoretical comparison (like PQ) acts as a direct multiplier.

The worst ArmaLite with special ammo is better, even while reloading, than the best DBK or macana. And that's without a discussion of crit mods, which I think is an obvious bonus in favour of the rifle.

If you don't have any special ammo, do some missions. If you don't wanna do some missions or work in a Gun Shop, pick up a DBK and stop kidding yourself that you're trying to min-max your game :P


Okay, I'm out of breath.

Mentions: Attacking: A Guide to Weapon Damage

Dictator [1841746]
If this post was 2 months earlier, wouldn't hav wasted 80mill on a macana

btw, Does anyone have an ammo guide/ graph?
docmox [2523997]
Oh man this is so helpful, I've been looking for a simple breakdown like this for ages. Should be a standard part of the guide cannon...
Proxima [1879587] Wiki Editor
Ah yes I made that graph a while ago, it still needs updating for Hazmats to be included (i.e. armour can go to 10 technically now, not 20). I was going to hold off until Incendiary got its change, but I suppose I can do it this afternoon.
Abdullah [2063435]
INC gonna get nerfed? ;(
Is it predictable if its still gonna be the best special ammo since others are essentially terrible?
Tracers not as good post accuracy nerf hmm?
Proxima [1879587] Wiki Editor
Yeah it'll be a slight nerf, although still best for the large majority of fights. The change is from a suggestion of mine to reduce the damage slightly (30% was the number Ched mentioned, rather than 40%) but to add a chance of "Burning".

Nah, nothing with anything accuracy related is as good since the change. Seriously accuracy was utterly OP before the nerf lol
Fyrewolf [2600943]
I personally use Metal Nunchakus because they have decent accuracy and better damage than both DBK and Macana. Using DBK right now, experimenting ya know.

However, Stealth is better when claiming Bounties or Mugging. In that case, if you work in a Fitness Center, I would use the Macana. Fitness Centers allow me to upgrade strength with Job Points, and it's great for Newbies.

If you wanna do a Macana/DBK build, have your Strength and Speed real high, higher than Def and Dex.
If you have great amounts of Speed, go with the Macana, because surefire damage is better per turn.

I guess the Macana is better overall unless you have bad Strength.


Personally I would use the DBK, because it's cooler.

USE THE DBK IT'S COOLER
Lysandra [2198698]
What if you took all that E from doing missions for the mods and special ammo and trained it instead? Would there ever be a point where the battle stat gain would overcome not using the Armalite?
Galdyr [2256129]
I use macana during dogtags event when stealth is crucial and dbk during tt wars when damage is more important. I rarely use my rifle because i have merits in piercing.

However, that being said I want to save for a handbag. Definitely the best weapon in the game.