Impossible to be stopped? No idea where that comes from.
People get stopped all the time. They just take a lot of people with them first.
People get stopped all the time. They just take a lot of people with them first.
NFA / ATF
Started by x0wlz [3241353] on in Politics & Law.
Posts archived: 97 / 97 posts (100%) · the total is Torn's reply count + the opening post at the last fetch
[background color=var(--bbc-body-bg-color)]That's my explanation. Nowadays I would say that they should probably separate but no government agency would willingly cede power lmao[/background]
Concur.
Ceding of power has happened in the past, although I can't think of an example where it happened from within the agency. Most of the examples I can think of were due to legislation or due to the President scaling back an agency's powers (usually due to creating another agency).
If one dumbass kid with a gun can hold up a police department for hours then exactly how are firearms in the hands of competent people incapable of mounting a reasonable resistance? That's the point I was making.
Also, aassume that there is a threat facing humans and we can't fathom a way that we could possibly fight back or maybe just that it would be really hard. Does that mean we should just roll over and give up like a bunch of bitches?
Also, aassume that there is a threat facing humans and we can't fathom a way that we could possibly fight back or maybe just that it would be really hard. Does that mean we should just roll over and give up like a bunch of bitches?
The police force response was to wait around until someone with military gear could make a move on the room.
A military response, in a serious civil war, would be to just drop a bomb on him.
And I'm not sure why you think a direct military confrontation is the only way to fight back. Egypt didn't overthrow its government because it went toe to toe with the military. It was from being out in the streets.
The French resistance in world war two didn't try to attack German forces. They focused on sabotage, spying, tight targeted assassinations perhaps.
Would having an assault rifle available to everyone help in the case of military occupation? Sure. The odds of that situation are extremely low. Meanwhile, the odds those weapons will be used to kill random people is very high, as in they happen every week.
A military response, in a serious civil war, would be to just drop a bomb on him.
And I'm not sure why you think a direct military confrontation is the only way to fight back. Egypt didn't overthrow its government because it went toe to toe with the military. It was from being out in the streets.
The French resistance in world war two didn't try to attack German forces. They focused on sabotage, spying, tight targeted assassinations perhaps.
Would having an assault rifle available to everyone help in the case of military occupation? Sure. The odds of that situation are extremely low. Meanwhile, the odds those weapons will be used to kill random people is very high, as in they happen every week.
Really? Exactly what are the odds of these rifles being used to kill anyone again?
Also why didn't those governments just bomb those people too?
Also, at Uvalde the reason it took so long is because they were a bunch of pussies who should not have been given the position they had. Do not make excuses for them...
Also why didn't those governments just bomb those people too?
Also, at Uvalde the reason it took so long is because they were a bunch of pussies who should not have been given the position they had. Do not make excuses for them...
What are the odds of those rifles being used? They were used TODAY
This article you linked makes no mention of the firearm used in this incident.
So again exactly what are the chances an "assault rifle" is used to harm someone. Especially compared to that of any other firearm.
I personally do not know of ANY recent cases in the USA where an intermediate caliber select fire rifle was used in a crime much less in harming someone.
So again exactly what are the chances an "assault rifle" is used to harm someone. Especially compared to that of any other firearm.
I personally do not know of ANY recent cases in the USA where an intermediate caliber select fire rifle was used in a crime much less in harming someone.
A military response, in a serious civil war, would be to just drop a bomb on him.
Uh.. after all your yippity-yapping about Palestine, did you seriously just state that the expected response to small arms fire would be to drop a bomb on the source?
[image: preview.redd.it]
![[image: preview.redd.it]](https://preview.redd.it/xirbx1rd1p171.png?width=680&format=png&auto=webp&s=20660b11882a6a398a127c52d03a2895707b2180){kind=link}
Fr, it's like these dumbasses don't understand the first thing about what they think to be their best argument.
So much "it's called a magazine!" Energy from you.
I expect you pull your "no recent cases" claim from the fact that AR-15s are not select fire, only semi auto.
I'm not in the mood to quibble with the exact classification of AR-15 rifles, which have been used in some of the most prominent shootings in America. Let's settle on a much simpler point:
The most powerful weapons one can obtain legally in the US have been used in mass shootings. So if you legalize an even more powerful gun, what do you expect happens?
I expect you pull your "no recent cases" claim from the fact that AR-15s are not select fire, only semi auto.
I'm not in the mood to quibble with the exact classification of AR-15 rifles, which have been used in some of the most prominent shootings in America. Let's settle on a much simpler point:
The most powerful weapons one can obtain legally in the US have been used in mass shootings. So if you legalize an even more powerful gun, what do you expect happens?
Gee, how could I possibly suggest an evil government oppressing its people to the point there was an armed resistance might use less than ethical tactics?
Like...you realize in this "defend us from the government" justification for heavy weapons that you're the Hamas in this situation. And you find it odd I would compare your opponent to IDF?
Like...you realize in this "defend us from the government" justification for heavy weapons that you're the Hamas in this situation. And you find it odd I would compare your opponent to IDF?
Powerful?? They’re 0.003 bigger than a f**king .22.
You’re going to lose your shit when you see a musket.
You’re going to lose your shit when you see a musket.
Don’t even think about trying to gloss over the fact that you pointed out that the expected response to small arms fire is dropping a bomb on it and not putting your own soldiers in harms way.
F*king kinetic energy, how does it work?
At least Tuit wouldn't stumble on something so basic
At least Tuit wouldn't stumble on something so basic
Mhm. And your explanation for the 7.62 cartridge used all over the world on AK platforms? They’re the same to obtain as an AR, you know.
By the way, size (mass) matters:
Kinetic energy is directly proportional to the mass of the object and to the square of its velocity: K.E. = 1/2 m v2. If the mass has units of kilograms and the velocity of meters per second, the kinetic energy has units of kilograms-meters squared per second squared.
By the way, size (mass) matters:
Kinetic energy is directly proportional to the mass of the object and to the square of its velocity: K.E. = 1/2 m v2. If the mass has units of kilograms and the velocity of meters per second, the kinetic energy has units of kilograms-meters squared per second squared.
I'm a bit confused. Are you objecting to the bomb dropping policy or saying that me bringing it up to demonstrate how asymmetrical a conflict with a modern military would be is some kind of hypocrisy?
I freely admit and apologize for engaging in clipazinism and as much as this is a frustrating thing to talk about you seem to be being very nice to me despite the seriousness and contentiousness of the subject so if you are willing I will try to speak to you like a friend instead of me being a dick about it for which I apologize for acting like one.
However I do very much disagree with the idea you are trying to push here for a few reasons and many of them being definitional so please forgive me but I unfortunately have to resort to making what is essentially a distinction between clips and magazines.
For your first point, yes that is exactly what I am saying that select fire weapons have not been used in any crime I know of in quite a while and while it's probably a dick move to say that you did say "assault rifle." NOW NOW NOW the dick move on my part is assuming you used the word assault rifle in the same way I do which we clearly do not.
In being fair to you I am going to assume that by assault rifle you mean any intermediate caliber rifle with a detachable box magazine. Personally I would just call that a rifle or being more specific I might call it a semiauto/sporting rifle but between you and me, calling it a sporting rifle is a cope term. I would also say that if you want to maximize the effect of your arguement then you shouldn't limit "assault rifle" to just ARs but also all other intermediate caliber rifles but being fair again, when someone says AR15 it's not hard to extrapolate that you also mean all of its derivatives and similar platforms.
"The most powerful weapons one can obtain legally in the US have been used in mass shootings. So if you legalize an even more powerful gun, what do you expect happens?"
Now for your argument here. I am assuming you are referring either to the AR15 or semi auto rifles as a whole when you refer to "the most powerful weapons."
I am unsure what makes you think that these are the "most powerful" weapons one can legally obtain in the US as I have quite a few and I don't think I would consider any of them as the most powerful.
Also it seems that you are assuming that NFA items are "more powerful" than AR15s (im just gonna say AR15 even though I mean rifles from now on) when SBRs (short barreled rifles) shoot bullets at the same rate but lower velocities (due to barrel length). Also all NFA items including machine guns ARE legal to own in the USA they just require a $200 payment to the ATF a bit of paper work and (currently) about 7-10 days wait for approval while they check your paperwork.
Now what do I expect to happen? Well I am just going to straight out say what I have been trying to guide you towards and that is that ALL rifles (including AR15s) make up a MINISCULE amount of homicide deaths in the USA. Yes 1 is too many but hammers kill more people than all rifles combined.
For this reason I do not believe that derestricting NFA items (which until very recently with the proliferation of full auto handgun "switches" in places like Chicago) which have had nearly 0 deaths/year would actually nominally increase the homicide rate in the United States.
If you actually wanted to decrease deaths in the United States it is my contention that you should target the guns that ACTUALLY kill the most people and are used by people to cause the most harm.
Those guns would be stolen handguns (BY FAR). I find it very suspicious when people say they want to reduce harm but instead of targeting something which is used to perpetrate the most amount of harm they instead focus on something that is being used very rarely.
No ill will meant brother, yes a lot of gun nerds whine about definitions but it's is because politicians LOVE saying xyz kills people but do not even know what xyz means and end up banning something that will not save anyone's lives and only just ends up meaning that us gun people are going to have to make some loophole just so we can punch holes in paper targets lmao.
Think about it like pronouns. Someone's pronouns might not mean much to you but those words/definitions are important to them and they have their valid personal reasons for that.
However I do very much disagree with the idea you are trying to push here for a few reasons and many of them being definitional so please forgive me but I unfortunately have to resort to making what is essentially a distinction between clips and magazines.
For your first point, yes that is exactly what I am saying that select fire weapons have not been used in any crime I know of in quite a while and while it's probably a dick move to say that you did say "assault rifle." NOW NOW NOW the dick move on my part is assuming you used the word assault rifle in the same way I do which we clearly do not.
In being fair to you I am going to assume that by assault rifle you mean any intermediate caliber rifle with a detachable box magazine. Personally I would just call that a rifle or being more specific I might call it a semiauto/sporting rifle but between you and me, calling it a sporting rifle is a cope term. I would also say that if you want to maximize the effect of your arguement then you shouldn't limit "assault rifle" to just ARs but also all other intermediate caliber rifles but being fair again, when someone says AR15 it's not hard to extrapolate that you also mean all of its derivatives and similar platforms.
"The most powerful weapons one can obtain legally in the US have been used in mass shootings. So if you legalize an even more powerful gun, what do you expect happens?"
Now for your argument here. I am assuming you are referring either to the AR15 or semi auto rifles as a whole when you refer to "the most powerful weapons."
I am unsure what makes you think that these are the "most powerful" weapons one can legally obtain in the US as I have quite a few and I don't think I would consider any of them as the most powerful.
Also it seems that you are assuming that NFA items are "more powerful" than AR15s (im just gonna say AR15 even though I mean rifles from now on) when SBRs (short barreled rifles) shoot bullets at the same rate but lower velocities (due to barrel length). Also all NFA items including machine guns ARE legal to own in the USA they just require a $200 payment to the ATF a bit of paper work and (currently) about 7-10 days wait for approval while they check your paperwork.
Now what do I expect to happen? Well I am just going to straight out say what I have been trying to guide you towards and that is that ALL rifles (including AR15s) make up a MINISCULE amount of homicide deaths in the USA. Yes 1 is too many but hammers kill more people than all rifles combined.
For this reason I do not believe that derestricting NFA items (which until very recently with the proliferation of full auto handgun "switches" in places like Chicago) which have had nearly 0 deaths/year would actually nominally increase the homicide rate in the United States.
If you actually wanted to decrease deaths in the United States it is my contention that you should target the guns that ACTUALLY kill the most people and are used by people to cause the most harm.
Those guns would be stolen handguns (BY FAR). I find it very suspicious when people say they want to reduce harm but instead of targeting something which is used to perpetrate the most amount of harm they instead focus on something that is being used very rarely.
No ill will meant brother, yes a lot of gun nerds whine about definitions but it's is because politicians LOVE saying xyz kills people but do not even know what xyz means and end up banning something that will not save anyone's lives and only just ends up meaning that us gun people are going to have to make some loophole just so we can punch holes in paper targets lmao.
Think about it like pronouns. Someone's pronouns might not mean much to you but those words/definitions are important to them and they have their valid personal reasons for that.
I'm glad you looked it up and posted it for the rest of the class.
An .223 AR-15 round can reach muzzle velocities around 3 times that of a .45 pistol. Which has more kinetic energy?
I'm not sure what point you're trying to make about AK rounds. What am I needing to explain?
An .223 AR-15 round can reach muzzle velocities around 3 times that of a .45 pistol. Which has more kinetic energy?
I'm not sure what point you're trying to make about AK rounds. What am I needing to explain?
awww shit... Lucy got more 'splainin' that need to get done
Well this is a bit enlightening in that you are giving a solid metric for power which I do appreciate. This may come as no surprise but the word "power" is a heated topic even between gun nerds.
There are no arguments here just nerd gun data about kinetic energy and some cartridge specific context.
The following KEs are given using the data on Wikipedia which is aggregated from chronos by the ammo manufacturer AFAIK. They also have differing barrel lengths that you can find on wiki if you care.
Kinetic energy given in Joules
22 long rifle: 178-277J
Most numerous cartridge in the United States. Often used for plinking or small game. Things like squirrels, rodent and sometimes as large as raccoons/opposums. (Some people will take deer with it but those people are exceptionally good shots, exceptionally desperate or exceptionally retarded)
9x19mm: 481-729J
Arguably the most popular handgun cartridge in the United States (I carry a 9mm). Also the cartridge of choice for most militaries and police departments.
Sometimes used to hunt and typically used in the same circumstances as 22lr but is typically used for slightly larger game. Sometimes used for deer.
.357 Magnum: 731-1062J
Not the "most powerful" handgun cartridge BUT it is the largest cartridge that I would say if commonly carried here. Relatively popular cartridge but due to it's size and recoil (also due to the types of firearms that fire it) it is mostly popular in that you love to shoot it but hate to carry it. Very popular hunting cartridge, probably one of the most popular pistol rounds for hunting. Used for just about anything larger than a squirrel but possibly too much for a squirrel.
5.56x45mm / .223 Remington: 1300-1858J
Btw 5.56 NATO and .223 Remington are technically different cartridges but that's a gun autism thing that we won't get into.
This is by far the most popular rifle round (especially limiting scope to intermediate cartridges) in the United States for civilians and police departments. This is also the NATO standard infantry round in what I would consider their assault rifles.
Often used in hunting (where legal) ((there are a bunch for weird cartridge requirements for certain game/seasons))
Game is usually coyote sized to large deer but as with all the others some people use it for smaller and larger game.
Side note, Russia currently uses 5.45x39mm which has ~the same KE
Effective range imo is ~500-800m
7.62NATO/.308 Winchester: 2559-2718J
Again two different cartridges but very similar.
This is the first "full length" rifle cartridge. This is a NATO standard round for GPMGs and some LMGs. Differences between those are pedantic and ancillary. The US Army also adopted a similar (kinda kinda not) cartridge for their new standard rifle and NGSW. VERY popular hunting round along with its slightly weaker .30-06 counterpart. Also relatively popular among civilians for its ability to reach longer ranges (1000m if you are good).
.338 Lapua: 6782-6793J
This is one of the most popular precision/long range cartridges on the market. Popular with civilians and militaries for the same reasons. Also relatively popular for hunting big game or hunting where game is more likely to be further away.
Can be effective for a mile or two depending on the gun and the shooter.
.50BMG: 13,241-14,895J
This is the round fired by the M2 Browning as well as the larger Barret variants. This round is surely powerful and is often used for anti material purposes by militaries and sometimes by anti terroist/police forces. Very popular among civilians for long range/big game hunting as well as sport shooting. Also blows the shit out of soda pops. Lately this round is being used less for precision/long range shooting due to small diameter cartridges with better projectile design being able to carry more energy longer and moving around less while in the air. (NERD SHIT)
All of these cartridges and the firearms that shoot them are legal to purchase and own in the US. In most places one can buy one at 18 years old and may not even need a background check depending on the State you live in.
Larger rounds and firearms are available but you may need to fill out some paperwork for NFA items or acquire special licensing.
There are no arguments here just nerd gun data about kinetic energy and some cartridge specific context.
The following KEs are given using the data on Wikipedia which is aggregated from chronos by the ammo manufacturer AFAIK. They also have differing barrel lengths that you can find on wiki if you care.
Kinetic energy given in Joules
22 long rifle: 178-277J
Most numerous cartridge in the United States. Often used for plinking or small game. Things like squirrels, rodent and sometimes as large as raccoons/opposums. (Some people will take deer with it but those people are exceptionally good shots, exceptionally desperate or exceptionally retarded)
9x19mm: 481-729J
Arguably the most popular handgun cartridge in the United States (I carry a 9mm). Also the cartridge of choice for most militaries and police departments.
Sometimes used to hunt and typically used in the same circumstances as 22lr but is typically used for slightly larger game. Sometimes used for deer.
.357 Magnum: 731-1062J
Not the "most powerful" handgun cartridge BUT it is the largest cartridge that I would say if commonly carried here. Relatively popular cartridge but due to it's size and recoil (also due to the types of firearms that fire it) it is mostly popular in that you love to shoot it but hate to carry it. Very popular hunting cartridge, probably one of the most popular pistol rounds for hunting. Used for just about anything larger than a squirrel but possibly too much for a squirrel.
5.56x45mm / .223 Remington: 1300-1858J
Btw 5.56 NATO and .223 Remington are technically different cartridges but that's a gun autism thing that we won't get into.
This is by far the most popular rifle round (especially limiting scope to intermediate cartridges) in the United States for civilians and police departments. This is also the NATO standard infantry round in what I would consider their assault rifles.
Often used in hunting (where legal) ((there are a bunch for weird cartridge requirements for certain game/seasons))
Game is usually coyote sized to large deer but as with all the others some people use it for smaller and larger game.
Side note, Russia currently uses 5.45x39mm which has ~the same KE
Effective range imo is ~500-800m
7.62NATO/.308 Winchester: 2559-2718J
Again two different cartridges but very similar.
This is the first "full length" rifle cartridge. This is a NATO standard round for GPMGs and some LMGs. Differences between those are pedantic and ancillary. The US Army also adopted a similar (kinda kinda not) cartridge for their new standard rifle and NGSW. VERY popular hunting round along with its slightly weaker .30-06 counterpart. Also relatively popular among civilians for its ability to reach longer ranges (1000m if you are good).
.338 Lapua: 6782-6793J
This is one of the most popular precision/long range cartridges on the market. Popular with civilians and militaries for the same reasons. Also relatively popular for hunting big game or hunting where game is more likely to be further away.
Can be effective for a mile or two depending on the gun and the shooter.
.50BMG: 13,241-14,895J
This is the round fired by the M2 Browning as well as the larger Barret variants. This round is surely powerful and is often used for anti material purposes by militaries and sometimes by anti terroist/police forces. Very popular among civilians for long range/big game hunting as well as sport shooting. Also blows the shit out of soda pops. Lately this round is being used less for precision/long range shooting due to small diameter cartridges with better projectile design being able to carry more energy longer and moving around less while in the air. (NERD SHIT)
All of these cartridges and the firearms that shoot them are legal to purchase and own in the US. In most places one can buy one at 18 years old and may not even need a background check depending on the State you live in.
Larger rounds and firearms are available but you may need to fill out some paperwork for NFA items or acquire special licensing.